The Cole Memo

In this episode of The Cole Memo, Cole Preston welcomes back Chicago Tribune reporter Jeremy Gorner for an in-depth conversation on Illinois’ controversial assault weapons ban. They discuss the origins of the legislation, the ongoing legal battles, and its potential to reach the U.S. Supreme Court. Jeremy breaks down the arguments from both gun rights advocates and gun control proponents, while Cole draws comparisons between firearm policy and other legislative challenges in the state.

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Links mentioned during show

• Follow Jeremy Gorner on X (Twitter)
• Read Jeremy’s latest article on Illinois gun ban here
• Culture of Corruption Series by Chicago Tribune
• Podcast with Ray Long 

The auto-generated transcript is available below.

I’m Cole Preston and today I’m at Blue Island beer company for the premiere of my mini documentary on legalization policy in [Music] Illinois I’ve been following cannabis policy since colorful Colorado legalized it all the way back in the day and when my home state of Illinois decided to legalize it I just became enamored I wondered what would it actually look [Music] like if you’d like to see how Illinois fell short in achieving meaningful reform in their cannabis policy you can watch my mini do now at Co memo.com do [Music] so Jeremy thank you for sitting down with me again today uh before I have you introduce yourself I just wanted to tell you a funny story unfortunately I don’t have the clip today but somebody actually caught the moment that in Springfield Illinois I recently went uh for the most recent legislative session and I was standing outside of the press office and you walked by and I’m the type of nerd that recognizes uh reporters that’s how nerdy I am and I was like oh [ __ ] that’s Jeremy and I was really excited I’d never seen you in person we’ve you know been on the podcast together and this person got on video they like looked at me and they could tell my gears were turning they literally got me on video like you walk in and I’m I like look at the door and I like look at other people and I just look at the door again and I’m like I’m gonna go say hi to Jeremy yeah know was just kind of funny cuz uh so yeah went in I wish I would have gotten a picture with you uh it was just I was excited to just be there in general but then to see you was also cool so no no no know it was nice meeting you as well and you were with a group of people if I recall right yeah yeah uh I wasn’t like I was I we aligned together I wasn’t you know like with them most of those people were like lobbying for hemp businesses I was just there as a a hemp consumer cuz like I drink the drinks I don’t know if you’ve seen them at Benny’s or whatever there’s these yeah so I just love this new found level of access like it’s it’s cool like for example I got my grandma and my aunt to try cannabis for the first time people I never you know they never would have taken a puff off a joint you know I could never convince them of that but they were like oh a sip I’ll try a sip and they’re like hm and then they tried more so it was uh anyways I was there and it just a side note Jeremy I don’t know if you’d find this interesting but it seemed like some of the legislators that I spoke to found it refreshing to speak to me cuz whenever I would go in there they’d be like like they’d get out of pen and paper I was actually impressed with you know when I I’d like come in at the tail end of somebody else’s meeting and they’d be like reciting the notes and like figures they’d be like oh so this this is if this legislation went through it’ cost you this like BL they really trying to understand the issues yeah but when I went in there so that’s like a really a compliment to some of these legislators I went to when I went in there they’re like all right they’ll flip their notepad and they’re like so who are you representing today and I was like oh I’m I’m just here I’m just I I’m not representing a business I’m just I have concerns about you know a level of access that I’ve been granted through this Federal you know farm bill and I I don’t want it to go away type of thing and they were like wow you’re just a person here and I was like yeah exactly you know yeah yeah you know it’s interesting because I think um you know what you see at and I’ve been on this beat you know coming up on three years and with they have committee hearings on these bills uh the the the people who testify generally I I mean it’s it’s it’s all walks of life but generally you know you’ll see lobbyists you’ll see experts in their field like maybe people who represent excuse me like other interest groups um sometimes you’ll have everyday people like if they especially if there’s criminal justice legislation you may have victims of crime for example um but you know I think obviously with cannabis being such a hot button issue since the governor um you know has been um in you know you know has been in charge you know for five and a half years certainly that’s something that resonates with a lot of everyday people um and and like you said it’s it’s attracting um new consumers like you were saying Your family members who are older you would have never thought um you know would partake um um you know you know with the Cannabis or cannabis related products it it’s become something that you know Ordinary People I think that a lot of these lawmakers have really been educated um by by this issue not just by lobbyists not by interest group but by Ordinary People you know um and I think we saw that a lot too with the assault weapons ban where you had um some lobbying but um in these hearings which in some cases became pretty contentious it was ordinary people who are really you know driving the debate you know so to speak so those are just like parallels there that I’ve noticed yeah well said well yeah my last note on cannabis as we transition over to our subject matter for today is uh for can cannabis has been a gateway drug for me to politics I’ve gotten very interested in the political process uh as a result of cannabis policy and it’s so like you said there are some analogies with I think this firearm policy we’ll be talking about today which is that you know maybe you know you could make the analogy that people that are very passionate about like that lifestyle or whatever uh they get really involved uh in in the policy so let’s just back up for a second I wanted to formally introduce you and have you introduce yourself uh Jeremy gorner thank you for joining me today uh displaying your Twitter right now um wanted to give you the space to introduce yourself before we got into the subject matter today yeah hi everybody um my name is Jeremy gorner um I am a reporter with uh for the Chicago Tribune I am based out of the Illinois state capital so I cover um in Springfield I cover the uh Illinois general assembly and Governor JB pritzker’s uh Administration um I cover really an array of issues really whatever the issue of the day is for the general assembly it could be um you know it could be and and and that’s also when we’re not covering the legislature because the legislature runs primarily from uh January through May and then there’s a couple of weeks uh in November where they come back to Springfield but when I’m not doing that um a lot of the time you know especially in election years we’re focusing on campaigns and elections uh this has been an especially busy year for me um I had to cover the um well had the privilege rather to say I covered the Republican National Convention and the Democratic National Convention um and you know it’s obviously very rare I’m I’m I’m a native Chicago and so it’s very rare where you have where I I the way I see it someone like me who covers state government and politics gets to cover two major national political inventions that are con conventions that are essentially in my backyard you know you had the RNC in Milwaukee the DNC in Chicago I don’t think we’re ever going to see that again for yeah that was convenient long time so it’s been um a really busy year for that but um what I’ve learned but that being said this is a Beat where um I tend to shift gears a lot because of like I said we’ll be covering elections one day and then we’ll go back to covering uh state government policy another day and I think what we’re going to talk about today with the assault weapons ban is just one facet of the beat that I’ve covered the last couple of years um uh in Springfield I mean you know when I cover state government policy uh matters that could range anything from the state budget um to energy policy to to um you know to the environment to education to criminal justice matters it’s last couple of years criminal justice matters have really um you know really gained a lot of attention because of the passage of the safety act which includes um the elimination of cash bail and then um of course when um tragedy strike like what happened in Highland Park a couple of years ago the mass shooting at the Fourth of July parade that resulted in the assault weapons ban and what we’ve seen in unfold in Springfield is lot of controversy um you know between gun rights groups and gun gun control Advocates who obviously are fighting to keep this law in place um and that’s all come to a head this week at a in a federal courtroom in East St Louis where um a number of gun rights Advocates um who had filed a lawsuit were trying to basically loyers on behalf of those Advocates were trying to plead their case on why um they feel this assault weapons ban should be uh struck down gotcha yeah and uh what were what were some of those uh reasons if uh you don’t mind getting into that why they why they feel it should be stuck struck down and I’m guessing this the state either has responded or has to issue a response or something no they have okay they have there was a there was you know there was a trial this week but I mean generally the arguments have not changed um ever since the legal challenges started pouring in um a year and a half ago which is I think let’s start there um to to kind of you know give you a sense of where where we ended up right now where We’ve Ended up right now so um or I’ll go back to 2022 obviously Highland Park Illinois there was a Fourth of July parade um and a mass shooting occurred at the parade seven people were killed um dozens more were injured um there was an arrest made um in that um you know in that mass shooting and and um uh Robert Creo III is the defendant in that case he’s still awaiting trial and there were a lot of questions surrounding how he was able to he obtained the the gun that he used um uh um which was a Smith and Wesson M&P15 um uh rifle um was a legal purchase um he obtained it um within the last couple of years before that um using a firearm owner’s identification card for people who don’t know in Illinois in order to make a lawful purchase of a gun you must have a FOID card um in order to to do that um with FOID cards you know in order to obtain one a background check is conducted um on an individual for for them to obtain one um this was a case where um you know authorities alleged that um his father Kimo’s father had helped him um get this FOID card somehow um even though in the months before that and this was around 2019 um um local police had uh or police had paid visits to Cero’s home um where they um you know you know over reports that he had threatened to kill people or that he had threatened to um kill himself and whenever something like that happens according to authorities a um what’s called a clear and present danger report must be filed to the Illinois State Police um that happened in this case but um but what happened was is that this you know for whatever reason that report was not um retained by the state police because at the time um State Police had a policy or they really basically Creo did not have a FOID Card application on file um and um you know nor did he have a pending application and uh the state police determined that he wasn’t considered an imminent threat so they did not retain that clear and present danger report and then fast forward to early 2020 he’s able to get a Foy card with the help of his father um and um according to authorities so he gets this he obtains this gun legally and then after the shooting in 20122 um there was a big Push by gun control Advocates to um um you know to Institute an assault weapons ban or a ban on um certain semi-automatic high-powered semi-automatic guns this could be pistols rifles handun um pistols rifles and shotguns mainly mainly rifles um and um some high capacity magazines and when I say high-capacity magazines what the state defines as high capacity is um anything that’s uh more than 10 rounds for long long guns and more than 15 rounds for handguns uh so uh in January 2023 um the Illinois General Assembly passed this um weapons ban and uh Governor pritzker signs it into law and then that’s when the legal challenges just started coming um groups like the Illinois State Rifle Association uh Federal firearm licenses of federal firearms licenses of Illinois that’s a an advocacy group in Illinois for uh gun dealers and um the National Shooting Sports Foundation that’s probably the I think um it’s it’s you know maybe the flagship or you know the main Premier um firearm trade um uh industry organization you know in in the country right now um you know organizations like that filed lawsuits and among others so um since then most of the legal challenges have been unsuccessful there were some legal challenges on the state level that the assault weapons van VI violated the state constitution um that didn’t go anywhere um they’ve tried at the federal level and there’s been moderates there was temporary success but then the seventh circuit overturned it o overturned um those rulings so I’ll get more specific on that because that’s what matters here several of those groups that I had mentioned before like the National Shooting Sports Foundation the State Rifle Association Etc and um others filed these legal challenges in federal court um including with in the um southern district of Illinois and um so last year maybe a couple months after pritsker signed the ban into law uh a federal judge in southern in the southern district of Illinois um sided with plaintiffs in granting uh um a preliminary injunction that would block the enforcement of the assault weapons ban temporarily while while the main legal challenges are kind of unfolding or pending basically what that meant and this was in April 2023 is that um this judge felt that the law likely violated the Second Amendment um uh basically right to bear arms and the right of self-defense and um in in what what was at issue in this decision making um largely was a um was a landmark 2022 case before the US Supreme Court it’s called New York State Rifle and Pistol Association versus bruan and basically in this decision in 2022 the Supreme Court established like a new constitutional standard holding that um gun laws today shall be historically consistent with laws on the books in the 18th century um and um you know so the basically you know the one of the gun rights groups cited this historical tradition test to contend that um the ban on these guns um is too broad because it prohibits guns that are commonly used by law-abiding citizens um I think that the organiz the National Shooting Sports foundation for instance they noted that there’s more than 24 million so-called modern sporting rifles in circulation in the US since you know that have been in circulation since the 1990s and this includes many AR-15 and AK-47 models that are subject to the Illinois ban um uh and oh by the way and the gun that was used in the Highland Park mass shooting the Smith and Wesson M&P15 was also on the list as a band weapon um for the um Illinois assault weapons band but um yeah so so because of this you know historical ition test this was passed by the 6 to3 conservative majority in the US Supreme Court um by the way and um so that goes to the seventh Circuit Court of Appeals that decision on the on the preliminary injunction and the seventh circuit um disagrees in a two to one decision and you know basically what you know what the seventh circuit had said is that there’s really there’s really limitations on the Second Amendment um is basically what it says you know you know after um the judge in the southern district of Illinois St mcclin um R you know ruled in favor of this preliminary Junction to Temporary put a halt temporarily put the halt on the assault weapons ban the seventh circuit found that um the the quote was is that at least since the founding there has been an unbroken tradition of regulating weapons uh end quote to protect Public Safety and that state and local laws at issue should quote unquote state within those boundaries so basically they’re saying that the government has a responsibility to protect people um and and and that would include I mean in so many words and that would include regulating you know weapons you know certain Firearms um there was a there was a lone dissenter um in that seventh circuit decision who um basically you know called the majority decision in the seven circuit a rem REM arable conclusion saying that these ban weapons and attachments you know basically the conclusion was you know by the seven circuit the majority is that they don’t qualify as arms that fall under as arms that fall under the Second Amendment but this the center it’s judge Michael Brennan in the sth circuit he’s found that they do warrant constitutional protection so what happened from there this was last that was last November in early July why um you know there were there was still more legal wrangling and there was a question on you know whether the US Supreme Court is going to take up this case early July right as the supreme court session ends um Justice Clarence Thomas um obviously a member of the high Court’s conservative majority um he he basically said that look we’re not going to take up the case yet because it’s only in its preliminary stages but but he really gave kind of a preview of how he felt about the Illinois Law um he said quote in my view Illinois’s band is is highly suspect because it broadly prohibits common semi-automatic Firearms used for lawful purposes it is difficult to see how the seventh circuit could have concluded that most of the widely known semi-automatic rifles are not arms protected by the Second Amendment and basically what the what this ruling um from the Supreme Court what Thomas wrote is that you know he says that the Supreme Court should take up this case after it goes through a trial on its merits which is what happened this week um in East St Louis before that same judge last year who um issued the preliminary injunction um because what happens is that you know parties involved in who are challenging a law they want a preliminary injunction it goes through that phase before going through the trial on its merits which is where you know you know where a judge will hear more evidence and more testimony to kind of bolster you know you know for each side to try to bolster their arguments on whether a law should stay in place or whether it should be struck down so that’s what happened this week um the this and that’s what happened this week and um and and I guess a decision from the the judge in the southern district Stephen mcglinn it it probably will come in a few weeks maybe in the next month and we’re going to start the process all over again basically that um you know if uh if the gun rights advoc if the gun rights Advocates don’t um don’t win this challenge then um I’m sure they’re going to appeal it obviously whoever whoever loses is definitely going to appeal this to the seventh circuit um and uh seventh circuit again and then um who knows what could happen from there if the seventh circuit like in a scenario like if if this judge sides with the gun rights Advocates it’s pretty I’m sure that the I’m sure that the um Illinois Attorney General will appeal that to the seventh circuit and if the seventh circuit were to side with the attorney general then this could be appealed all the way to the US Supreme Court wow that’s interesting and as we spoke about last time that’s I hope that was easy to follow Cole sorry I hope I wasn’t going no no I I appreciate you going into it and there is a lot of details and I may have you know I may have to revisit it and I might you know if I butcher any details feel free to you know like jump in here but like we were talking about last time first of all you did a great job I think of laying it out um but like we talked about last time it sounds like that’s what uh firearm Rights Act activists or Advocates uh are hoping for is it to go to the Supreme Court um would do you think that’s you know their their hope at least CU they see that the Supreme Court is being like favorable to the cause maybe yeah I mean I think that they probably any Avenue any Avenue they you know any Avenue that would allow illinoisans to uh legally carry um guns that are now illegal under the um St State’s assault weapons ban which by the way is formerly called the protect Illinois commu communities act um they want that overturned call it right I think I think one thing that I should note though too is that what I was told by one of the gun rights Advocates is that um you know is is basically that uh uh you know there are a couple of cases out there nationally that could be um considered by other courts I know there’s a case out of Maryland um that’s challenging I believe that’s challenging their ban their gun ban um that’s a case that could go that could potentially go before The Supreme Court um at some point and you know that that could be I know that gun rights folks have looked at that as kind of an option as opposed to the Illinois ban going to the US Supreme Court but I don’t think we should get ahead of ourselves there hasn’t been any kind of ruling from a judge on this and um and as far as gun control Advocates go they’re pretty you know they’ve been maintaining that this is a law that is constitutional um you know what the distinction that they’re trying to draw is is between weapons that are used for civilians and weapons that are used um for for military use and um there’s they feel that there’s an argument to be made that um that these are weapons of war and that they should be outlawed um which was really the impetus for the general assembly um passing this legislation and pritsker signing it in into law and of course the the Attorney General’s been trying to back up that point repeatedly you know with case law you know for any legal challenges that um come before it yeah yeah so it’ll be interesting like you said it sounds like you know if if illinoisans don’t get it somehow to the Supreme Court maybe um another state could because these are these these types of um um gun control measures are being taken up in you know different states like you said Maryland California I actually don’t know many others than that off the top of my head maybe no those are the two those are those are the main ones but I think Maryland is the one where there’s it appears that there’s more of a direct pipeline to the Supreme Court that could happen gotcha gotcha I’m curious you know um there was a question and I actually can play it play just a moment of it since it’s a short one and then I can ask my question I thought this was an interesting one this uh came to uh you know on the campaign Trail uh to um presidential candidate kamla Harris I’ll play the question and then kind of ask my question I thought it was an interesting one again uh quick question I want to talk to you about gun control so um you’ve said you support an assault weapons ban and Universal background checks and we actually learned during the debate that you are a gun owner um but in cities like Philadelphia Hand guns are responsible for most homicides and violent crime the most recent FBI data shows handguns were involved in 59% of murders in our country how will you address the issue of the use of handguns because a push for an assault weapons ban um only addresses a significant but small part of the problem so I’m not obviously asking you this question I was actually kind of wondering how if maybe you’ve heard similar to their question and I don’t know if you’ve thought of this angle I just thought of it on the phone with you so you know Chicago and I know this is kind of a talking point from maybe some of those those uh firearm Advocates say Chicago has this these tight gun control measures yet we see this PL puer of of guns in Chicago my question actually is not about the pistols or anything else about that my question is actually like you know without revealing my sources I’ve heard from several firearm Advocates that it’s relative easy to get around this assault weapons ban have you done any like investigation on on that so for example like the only thing it seems like the assault weapons or the Pika Act is restricting is these lower receivers which when you get down to brass tacks one time I was stoned talking to one of these firearm Advocates and they’re like it’s just a piece of metal man and I’m like damn that’s kind of true we can’t like talking about the switches right well not only switches but the lower receivers for to build a rifle and so they were saying like they what they were telling me was like you know you can either make one yourself which kind of reminded me of grow your own weed or they said it’s relatively easy to still get one and then what they do is they just go over to Indiana and they can buy all of the other parts without a background check so you get the all you have to get is the lower and then they go build the rest of the rifle from with parts from Indiana and then come back to Illinois and yeah so yeah so what else I think you’re talking about what gun control activists called call ghost guns I mean like gun like guns that or really it’s guns that are nons serialized you know I mean or guns that are homemade so um the general so General Assembly Illinois passed the law I believe it was last year um or the year before I think it might have been last year is in the last couple years outlawing goes um G ghost guns or non- serialized or or out along these like homemade guns um and for those that already exist that are in circulation in Illinois they must be sent to a federal firearms dealer to actually get serialized but from now on they’re for on intens of purposes they they are um you know that is the law of the land at least in Illinois that they are banned um now are there are there ways around that I mean I’m sure there are I mean what I could tell you is um I haven’t seen statistics but I know that in 2021 um so I used to cover the I used to cover the Chicago Police Department and right before I switched beats to cover the state house um I did a story I I looked at um statistics of gun recoveries by the Chicago Police Department in 2021 and what I could tell you is that there was a negligible number of guns that were recovered from Chicago Streets that were non-serialized or that were deemed ghost guns of course that but but at the time that number was growing now keep in mind every year and let’s use Chicago as an example um you know CPD recovers thousands of guns um of illegal guns off the streets right um obviously handguns handgun violence is what’s fueling firearm violence in the city um and the number of those non-serialized guns or ghost guns were very negligible that were recovered they were in like the double digits I I believe but I would imagine but but but double digits and then I think they got ended up in the triple digits but so I would but I would imagine that they are growing in popularity I’d be interested to because I know that in 2021 what the police were telling me is that they have they had been seeing more of that you know what I mean right well this PL PL I can’t say the word pler of um yeah 3D printing and it’s got a lot better and and it’s becoming like homeg grow where it’s like you can do it in your basement and nobody knows it’s like who and then like some of these that’s what I that’s kind of where my question was coming from it’s like you know with with bands you know sometimes especially if we’ve learned with like with drugs like bands just make people that really want it find a different way and um yeah like I said these this PL purifer of like 3D printed guns it’s kind of exploding and I think it’s a whole I don’t know if you know where this stands this might be a topic for another episode um but it’s interesting because some of these people are arguing well we’re sharing code for something that’s being printed that’s freedom of speech so they’re like circumventing it’s like well I’m not making the gun I’m just sharing code you know um and it’s like wow this whole thing is just really unraveled right and and and I will say so far I have not seen any at least known legal challenges to the ghost gun ban um in Illinois at least yet but but that being said I know what you know and then and then um Firearms Advocates will say well look at Illinois they’ve got you know the strictest gun laws in the country in the country like you’re among the strictest and you know you hear that argument all the time and there are I mean you know I I guess comparatively so especially to the surrounding states in the midwest that’s um that’s absolutely true but um at the same time but at the same time you know if you look at some of these other states and you know the clip you were showing me talked about Universal background checks and um I mean obviously if you buy a gun at a gun dealer you need to file you need to fill out a 40 473 you you know you know for there to be a background check on the federal level for uh legal gun purchase but if you want to resell that gun to if you want to do a private sale with somebody um not every state has background checks on Private Sales and that’s another issue like for um I mean Illinois in in Illinois um under the FOID act if you sell your gun in private if you it’s my understanding that if you sell your gun in a private sale um you know after you make a legal purchase from a gun shop maybe a few years later you want to sell it to somebody else you know you got to see the other person’s FOID card and and and keep and and but if you don’t I believe that the penalty is only a misdemeanor I mean it doesn’t really it doesn’t really have any teeth and I think they even have like some paper process where you like that you’re formally I don’t know I’ve never had do that um brief tangent just while it’s on my mind and since cannabis sometimes come comes up that’s currently the only way that cannabis users can legally purchase a firearm um otherwise they would be committing like a hunter Biden esque crime and I’m only saying it that way because he’s recently in the news for lying on that same question and uh it’s just interesting cuz obviously with rescheduling on the cusp and maybe changes in cannabis policy that things would change but I’m just saying that as of now if we instituted Universal background checks that would mean cannabis users would not have the right to to purchase firearms because they wouldn’t be able to P you know legally pass that background check again just small tangent that no no no that’s interesting I mean that’s that’s interesting I mean um and again I mean it’s not much of an issue for Illinois in that right you know there’s a law in the books that requires you you know a background check among Private Sales but again the penalty for that is is relatively minor and there’s other states like Wisconsin for example you don’t need to do a background check on Private Sales I mean and um and I would imagine that’s the same for other states that are um you know that don’t have as strict gun laws as Illinois but I mean but that being said there’s there’s a lot of ways that guns get you know you know a lot of these guns you figure have to originate with a lawful purchase question is how do they end up on the streets and a lot of that is you know law enforcement suspects they know how it happens they bring up straw purchasing as um a big reason for it and you know I remember 10 years ago hearing this explanation from Chicago Police leaders that this was a big you know a big Catalyst for guns ending up on the streets but but you don’t really see um prosecutors on the state or federal levels charging people with gun running or or charges that are you know resulting from St straw purchasing it’s a very hard crime to prove it seems um you know and then of course you know the lack gun laws from neighboring states like or or less strict gun laws from neighboring states like Wisconsin and Indiana are to blame you know of course of course if you look at but if you look at a lot of where these guns come from that are recovered in Chicago by police a lot of them end up from legal purchases in Cook County so it’s you know it’s it’s a crime you know proving tracing tracing guns you know to their origin has proven to be you know a difficult Endeavor for law enforcement and CPD I know local law enforcement including CPD they work with the ATF on this and it’s not um so it’s it’s it seems like it’s a never-ending fight to figure you know to wrap their heads around that but at the same time you know um yeah and then and then of course there’s just so many guns that are in circulation that you know we just enough fall through the cracks to create a dangerous environment for people on the streets you know in places like Chicago um in parts of Chicago so um so so yeah but but at the same time you know that kind of jumped out like we go back to Universal background checks that is what kind of jumped out at me um with uh the KL Harris interview is that yeah I mean not all states if if if you had that then every state on a private sale every state would require these on Private Sales and we just don’t we just don’t see that yeah yeah you made I I almost I’m glad I let you finish that point I almost cut you off because you made me think of something funny I just took a note so I wouldn’t forget um you’re talking about the LAX gun you know firearm policy in Indiana and it’s funny I’m working on a story if you can’t tell we’ll see if it ever comes out you know cuz you know how that goes right when you work on gotta do the long game but um yeah uh I was you know with some firearm Advocates we went to an Indiana gun store and uh I was kind of Blown Away at the difference I don’t know if you’ve ever been but this was an Armory and first of all the door was just open like have you ever been to a bar where they just keep the door open like come on come the door was just open like even dispensaries have like a buzzing system you know door was just open I walked in I like tripped over some guns I’m joking uh but literally like I mean it wasn’t very far in and you none of the guns most of the guns rather I think all the expensive ones were behind the counter but most of the Firearms were just out they weren’t even like locked like I could just pick them up and be like yeah you know like and I’m not I’m just trying to point out how different it is from Illinois it honestly reminds me of going to an Illinois dispensary versus a Michigan dispensary where in Illinois dispensaries everything is locked up behind the counter but Michigan dispensaries it’s all out in jars you can like go up and smell it look at it real close like it’s just completely open you know yeah um and that’s how it was in Indiana I was like wow it is like you said it is very LAX in Indiana it was like almost unbelievable right right right the door being open was just like I don’t know that just seemed crazy to me right right just wide open well well to your point and I’d like to bring up two points that relate to your that that I think relate to your point um you know one thing you know that I’ve been reading is that um uh so so I did a story uh earlier this month I don’t know if you saw it it um where there was a federal judge in Rockford um ruled it unconstitutional for Illinois residents with Concealed Carry Permits to um to prohibited from carrying guns on public transportation um and it’s and so it’s kind of Uncertain what that’s going to do this this pertains to the 2013 concealed carry law in Illinois Illinois was the last state um to pass such a law um you know allowing for concealed carrier guns in public you know with a permit um and but it when that law was pass there were all these conditions um that are in place to this day where you cannot carry conceal weapons hospitals schools um Sports Arenas um and public transportation and uh so this there was a lawsuit filed in Rockford where a judge ruled that unconstitutional BEC um and we’ll see what happens with it I mean the the Attorney General’s office um says the State Attorney General’s office says that they’re going to appeal it they kind of downplay the ruling a little bit saying it only applies to the four plaintiffs in the case but the lawyer for the plaintiff has told me that he thinks that one could argue that it applies more broadly but there hasn’t been a final judgment on that but that’s a that is a case that I would pay attention to um because that is again like you know in my earlier rambling about um this uh New York State Rifle and Pistol Association versus bruan case um this historical tradition um uh test on firearm regulation that I’m talking about that’s the centerpiece of that’s like a large part I should say of the assault weapons ban trial that’s also a factor in this Rockford case as well um so that’s that’s definitely um something to pay attention to that’s my first point my second point is that given that Illinois was like the last state to adopt a law like this you know 10 years ago what you’re seeing now is that you’re seeing a number of states that are um moving towards constitutional carry where um or a permitless carry um of you know of firearms so that’s you know another thing you know when you talk about Indiana I’m not sure if Indiana has Constitution care I have to check but like but yeah other states um you know have have moved in that direction I believe for the longest time Vermont was like the only state that um had that regulation but other states have followed suit um in the last 10 years yeah um you know the the thing about open or uh the carrying laws that’s interesting is like in Colorado for example you can open carry but yeah conceal carry you have to have like a permit um it’s it is interesting how like you know it seems like these yeah that that idea of no no permit required is really seemingly catching on and it sounds like if I understood what you’re saying correctly they’re taking that idea of the 1800 standard and applying it now to pistols saying like well hey I mean people always had a pistol on their hip back in the day yeah yeah gotcha gotcha or there’s no there’s no there well there’s right that there’s no law back then that really yeah right right I mean it was common use now you know was common use to the in the yeah exactly gotcha cool well um um any other bases you know it sounds like uh you know the future is uncertain um but we’ve we’ve touched on a few different nuances and thank you by the way for getting into like just uh I always like discussing you know some of these analogues between you know how we ban firearms versus you know drugs and how like you know other state policies can sometimes make those initiatives they can complicate them how about that I feel like that’s the most neutral way to say it you know right so any other bases you wanted to touch on these stories that we had know um no I mean that’s that’s pretty much it I I know that um you know one of the things I think like you know one of the things I will also say is that um you know I worked on a story about uh you know during the during the Democratic National Convention uh looking at the 1994 crime Bill the um violent crime control and Law Enforcement Act this was the you know this was under the Clinton Administration it was a response to um just the wave of Street violence we saw in America in the 1990s um and um as part of that it was the 30th an it’s the 30th Anniversary this year of that law and it’s been controversial in that you know a lot of Criminal Justice reformers believe that you know it fueled a culture of of mass incarceration because it um advoc it it advocated for stiffer prison sentences for certain crimes um and it also put you know it also came with a goal under the Clinton administration of you know hiring um 100,000 more police officers by the end of the 90s and you know a lot of those officers have have are are retiring now or have since retired but as it relates to this discussion Cole the other thing that came out of the crime bill was the 10-year B Federal assault weapon ban and um what you’re seeing now from on the Democrats platform that came out during the DNC um is they really want a renewal of the federal assault weapons ban I mean they apparently in the last couple of years um during the Biden years not the Trump years I mean in I believe it was 22 the the house the US House passed the federal ban on assault weapons and then it didn’t make it through the Senate so this is obviously something that’s top of mind for um Democratic lawmakers but at the same time we’ve seen a Congress that is probably as um divided as we’ll ever see it I mean it’s if it’s not 51 to 49 or 5050 it’s pretty damn close right so um you know getting something like that past you know is going to be um a tall order but that seemed to be at least during the Biden Administration really kind of a rallying cry to kind of renew that that ban but it’s not but this isn’t 1994 where you’re likely to see you know some Republicans cross over to the other side of the aisle and um um and support something like that um we’re obviously in a different political climate yeah well I wanted to end the show with giving a fell a shout out to some of your fellow reporters but I wanted to um on a really awesome series of stories they’re doing right now um and I think maybe even you might be helping so you can tell us um but before we do that I just wanted to see if you’ve heard any responses to this because this is one of the things that as a left leaning person as somebody who believes in like responsible firearm policy like um this is one of the things that has given me pause from the firearm arm Advocates it’s like and I’m curious if you’ve heard any responses to this what I think is a talking point um it’s this idea that like I think you said it earlier you know this idea that weapons for civilians versus weapons for the military and as a left leaning person that has you know passions in drug policy and and everything else I tend not to trust the police but this would this does make it so that only police can continue to buy these firearms and have these firearms and as a left leing person that really gave me pause they were like so on one hand you’re saying you you’re very skeptical of the police and I I’m not one of those people that’s like F the police I don’t I’m not that type of person I’m just I’m skeptical you know and I want them to prove themselves you know because they’ve had a you know bad track record and so it’s like I I do get nervous when we talk about only them having access to these militaries that were describing as military use have you had any have you heard any like people respond to that talking point or is that even a talking point you’ve heard much of in the this debate well I will tell you what I have heard um what I have heard related to what I think is related to what you said is that you know I said earlier in your show about how there have been legal challenges on the state and federal level of course the assault weapons ban trial this week that’s a federal case and that’s the main thing that that’s what we should all be paying attention to however on the state level there were um series of lawsuits challenging you know alleging that the the assault weapons band violated the Illinois constitution and one of the big arguments that the gun rights Advocates were bringing up is this idea that um I forget what the legal term is but in the assault weapons ban there are um like a special class or something there special class there are exemptions um and that includes police officers that includes military I believe it includes retired military I mean it’s just there’s a whole list prison wardens you know stuff like that and I know like you know you’re you know you’re talking about how you’re left leaning um you know when it comes to gun policy but even like you know more right leaning um Advocates were saying this is why it should be ruled unconstitutional because you know you’re you’re basically giving favoritism to one class over another class through these exemptions of course the Illinois Supreme Court um which is left leaning didn’t go for that so I think it’s a very um it’s a very interesting I think that that’s kind of the if if I’ve heard anything related to what you just said Cole that’s probably the main thing if that makes sense yeah and ironically you know it was the Illinois Supreme Court which has more Democrats on it that you know still um kept the ban um in place you know and yeah that’s side sided with attorney general Raul on on the issue yeah that’s kind of yeah where like I said I wasn’t necessarily expecting an answer but it’s like yeah it seems like the left is pushing for only the police you know and these types of people to have it and but on the other hand they’re also saying like you know there’s been protests and everything that have been left leaning like kind of skeptical of the police and so it’s like are we like what are we doing here it almost feels like inconsistent you know well well what I will say is like the issue that you bring up too and and again this was I haven’t really covered I haven’t really researched or done reporting on this in years but the issue it sounds like you’re kind of sort of touching on is this idea of the militarization of police departments right right and I will say and I can only speak of Chicago I don’t think that that was really I don’t think that was a thing in the Chicago Police Department as much as others I mean I think you see they have armored trucks like they have armored vehicles that go to swat responses these M wrap vehicles I mean but they don’t have very many of them um I mean this was as of a couple of years ago I don’t know what their Fleet is now um I do remember there was a push I mean you know CPD you know at depending on at some crime scenes you have officers who will carry rifles um I remember there but you know I I remember that there was a big push um for CPD officers to carry rifles after the um I was told as I remember um that you know around 2008 2009 do you remember the um Terror attacks in Mumbai um yeah uh and um after that um you know the CPD leadership basically had allowed and arranged for more officers you you know crime scenes to carry rifles I remember hearing that there were problems with some of those rifles or um but they’re um and and I you know I don’t really think that that was something that was permanent but you have seen waves over the years of this you know quasi military presence on the street of local law enforcement and that’s one example as to why but um but yeah I mean I don’t really in Chicago historically I don’t don’t believe that Chicago’s been you know you know as visible with that as other jurisdictions have been yeah well um thank you uh for talking about all these things and more and like I said I just wanted to close the show with a quick shout out for some of your fellow reporters and uh I just want to say before we move on to this folks as always uh the stories we’ve talked about today will be uh in the show notes uh I might ask you Jeremy to send me some of those articles you referenced you know over the years if if you have them if not I can easily find him um uh just so that I can you know if people want to read up on your work um but I wanted to give a shout out uh to the Chicago Tribune also to the 21st show uh w. illinois.edu for uh collaborating with the Chicago Tribune on this uh this podcast episode that I’m sharing right now is great if you want to listen to it to get a feel for what this series that we’re about to just briefly discuss is called but I want you all to check out the Chicago tribunes new series called culture of corruption and I’ll have it linked in our show notes there’s been a few different stories that have come out and I believe Ray long is on this Jeremy are you are you involved I’m not no okay no cool no no but yeah they’ve been doing they’ve been doing a great job on that it’s um you know the you know Ray long Rick Pearson um to name a few I mean these were longtime State House reporters and they’ve you know covered this stuff for a very long time so yeah gotcha yeah so shout out to them we’ll have that in the show notes check that out it’s uh very insightful uh we won’t start talking about it now cuz we’d be on the phone call for another hour Jeremy um so uh but again I want to thank you for what you do I know that I have a feeling that sometimes maybe as I told you I think in Springfield that maybe your job might be thankless you know um I hope it’s not but if in case it is I wanted to make sure to thank you for what you do because it’s important work so thanks Cole appreciate it likewise to you as well oh hey thank you that means the world to me and folks I hope you found as as much value in this conversation as I did there’s there’s a lot of good knowledge on this I like I said I’m going to have to listen back uh to it to uh you know completely understand this because it’s a really uh fast evolving thing and um yeah check out the show notes if you want to dig deeper we’ll see you on the next episode of the coal memo everybody take care