In this episode, Cole Preston is joined by Hirsh Jain to discuss the implications of Florida’s upcoming Amendment 3 vote, the complicated politics surrounding cannabis reform, and the ongoing debates over home grow and oligopolistic tendencies in the state’s marijuana industry. They also explore the growing tensions between hemp and cannabis markets, along with the broader criminal justice issues at play.
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The auto-generated transcript is available below.
I’m Cole Preston and today I’m at Blue Island beer company for the premiere of my mini documentary on legalization policy in [Music] Illinois I’ve been following cannabis policy since colorful Colorado legalized it all the way back in the day and when my home state of Illinois decided to legalize it I just became enamored I wondered what would it actually look [Music] like if you’d like to see how Illinois fell short in achieving meaningful reform in their cannabis policy you can watch my mini do now at Co memo.com do [Music] great name dude thank you thank you um yeah I always like to people show show people at the beginning of the show why the show is called the Cole memo uh hirsh thank you so much for joining me today I’m displaying your X profile right now I’ll have it linked in the show notes but I want to give you the space to introduce yourself this is our first time talking uh so uh pleasure to meet you I want to give you the space to introduce yourself to me and my audience totally uh Cole it’s so great to be on the show man so thank you so much uh for having me um a little bit about me my name is HH um obviously I’ve worked in the Cannabis space for seven years now although you know I’ve worked in cannabis in some capacity going back to you know when I was 17 years old before I could even vote um part of that is I grew up in Northern California um you know in the Bay Area so cannabis has always been a big part of of my life from a young age even probably younger than it should have been and you know if if we had more time I could spend the whole podcast talking to you about the transformative impact that cannabis has had on my life and how it’s shaped you know really the person I became but suffice to say at a young age I understood the immense power of of cannabis and how it could spur intellectual development and my interest in all sorts of activities so that’s part of the way that I come to this work uh I went to college at UC Berkeley and I worked in the Berkeley public defenders office as the Cannabis lead and so that meant I would defend students that were accused of can his violations by the university and back in the day when I went to college that meant you could very easily lose your financial aid or get kicked out of school so I come to this in part through a criminal justice angle and that’s the kind of work that I did in college um after I graduated from college I went to law school at Harvard and um there I focused on the war on drugs and got to do a lot of work with a lot of race and criminal justice Scholars um you know sort of examining the racially disperate impacts of cannabis criminalization so that’s another piece of this is is sort of an academic lens and then like many people I never really expected cannabis to to be a career so before I worked in cannabis I did a few other things I was a strategy consultant at McKenzie uh for a few years um I also worked at Airbnb when I was just at a startup stage and helped build out the policy team at Airbnb which was a super cool experience sort of building a legal and Regulatory framework around this activity that was getting increasingly popular and so I got to pass Airbnb regulations and so many of the cities in the United States and across the world you know got to live in places like Japan and pass Airbnb regulations there so that was a really awesome job um and then after that I jumped into cannabis after prop 64 passed in 2016 um I knew I had to be involved in the industry and I’d watched the legalization movement with great interest and attention and I had this thesis that the same skill set that I used at Airbnb again understanding local policy and helping local governments develop a legal framework around this product for which there was demand but that was illegal and mitigating some of the concerns regarding this new economy I had this thesis that that same skill set could be applicable in cannabis um and that has has turned out to be the case and you know the work that I’ve done in cannabis has been the most fulfilling you know sort of work I I’ve done really in my life and really that work surrounds understanding the legal and Regulatory framework that exists um for cannabis in you know the 24 adult youth States and the medical states that exist and then helping different entities navigate that environment so whether it it be helping leading retailers in California and across the country open up new dispensaries um whether it be helping Brands you know brands that I think many of us have heard of before you know Brands like level the prot tab product or or Mammoth that makes Heavy Hitters and alur um helping them move into new States and understand who who to partner with um but also you know working uh with investors helping them understand how the regulatory landscape will unfold so in short I think it’s sort of being a legal nerd who is passionate about cannabis and helping these entities that are seeking to normalize cannabis and build businesses navigate what is obviously a very complicated regulatory environment and you know going back to Airbnb I I found that many of those same things are true right in the same way that it was useful to understand how thousands of cities around the world were managing this new economy so I’ve similarly found it useful to analyze what is happening in cities and states and countries across the world so so that analog is strong and then in addition to you know sort of the the work that I do to make a living you know I I am involved with a bunch of nonprofits I’m on the board of Cal normal which you know I’m sure many folks know um sort of tries to push a pat patients rights perspective when it comes to cannabis and so we’ve helped pass laws that make it illegal to fire someone for off-duty cannabis use in in California for example so that’s an organization I’m really passionate about and I’m also the vice chair of the Cannabis Chamber of Commerce which as its name suggests attempts to be a chamber of commerce for the Cannabis industry and push better public policy and then I also get to teach law a little bit which is super fun you know um as a legal nerd it’s exciting to see cannabis become part of law school curricula so at law schools like the University of Virginia law school the University of Nevada Las Vegas um I get to teach cannabis policy classes uh which is super fun too that’s really cool that’s super cool dude you get [ __ ] you have enough time to smoke any weed I feel like you got to make time for smoking weed when you got that much [ __ ] going on bro I do I do manage to find time for that some somewhere I the real answer to your question is that’s I mean you know weed has been such a source of intellectual inspiration for me that um you know consuming cannabis and studying and learning about cannabis is all part of the same cycle um for I I use cannabis a lot like coffee I feel like you know I almost thought when I asked you that question it’s almost like sometimes it’s not that you have to make time or or that you know you have to like carve out time it’s that like it helps you get through time you know what I mean that makes sense so I think the analoges between the two are totally on point I’m a huge fan of coffee as I am um of cannabis and look anything can be abused surely people abuse coffee as as they do cannabis um but I found that as you were alluding to these are two different substances that if used intelligently and appropriately can en enance your productivity and unlike many other substances out there you know abuse of these substances doesn’t have the same physical sort of consequences as other ones so I totally agree with that I find that they go really well to together like I like using in conjunction with one another and I think these are two substances that have been often portrayed in a negative light when it comes to their their harms but I think science will bear out that the appropriate consumption of these two things can actually be beneficial from a health perspective yeah and I think that’s key right there cuz like I just started drinking coffee within like the last few years and as a result of that it’s not like I don’t drink caffeinated beverages every once in a while but you know the caffeinated beverages that I do drink like Coca-Cola they don’t have like I wouldn’t say like high amounts of caffeine in it so like when I would have when I had a coffee the first time at the office I was like again this was just a few years ago it was in an office scenario and I felt like I was like [ __ ] high off of something like I was like wow this is like actually like a psych or psychoactive substance you know everybody I get why people say now don’t talk to me before my coffee I was like Wow but I guess just to wrap it back to the analogy and then we can get to what we wanted to talk about today like with coffee because my tolerance is so low like I can only drink like half a cup man like cuz if I drink a full cup or two not only am I going to be open awake all [ __ ] day and all night but I’m actually like Spacey all over the place kind of like what happens if I’m [ __ ] too high and try to go into a meeting like and that’s where I really see the similarities like you just said that was a long way of saying like you just said you can overdo it right it’s all about like uh moderation right exactly and I feel like people can moderate their coffee consumption because it’s regulated right and because there’s normalization regarding different potencies that exist and yet things are still very opaque when it comes to cannabis so part of our task is to develop a framework whereby people can Avail themselves of the benefits of cannabis and we can give them guidance about how they can consume it right in ways that are beneficial to them rather than overwhelming to them right and so yeah that’s I think one of the benefits of normalization yeah so what do you want to talk about first man you want to talk about hemp or you want to talk about uh Florida’s Amendment Three Let’s uh yeah let’s let’s talk about Amendment Three why don’t we unpack that and then maybe our second topic we can talk about sort of the hemp cannabis uh culture wars yeah and you’re probably going to do this already but if you could just for my listeners since a lot of them come from Illinois not all of them do um some of them come from other states as well can you just give a little bit of background as like Amendment Three what it is why it’s an amendment I think you’re going to kind of lay out those differences but just for our listeners yeah totally yeah I’ll give a brief description of amendment three and then we can sort of talk about why it’s an amendment after that and kind of like you know how the initiative process works in Florida but you know in short as you were alluding to amendment 3 is a ballot initiative that all Floridians will vote on this November so this November when people are voting for president you know in Florida deciding whether to vote for you know Trump or kamla Harris they will also get a chance to vote on Amendment Three um Amendment Three is an initiative that would legalize cannabis or you know marijuana uh in Florida and look I I know you know just a comment on terminology right obviously we’re going to be talking about hemp and so some people distinguish hemp from marijuana right that’s sort of the legal term other people are uncomfortable with the term marijuana they think of it as racist so I’ll just use the term cannabis even though I think we all understand that the cannabis plant you know incorporates hemp but I understand that there are terminology differences there but yes what amendment three would do is that it would legalize cannabis in Florida right now as many folks know um there are 24 adult used States so 24 of the 50 states in this country have legalized cannabis for adults meaning that if you’re 21 years old right you can possess and and in most of those States purchase cannabis um Florida if it passes would be the 25th state to do so currently Florida is Medical Only and so what that means is you need a medical card in order to obtain cannabis Florida has a very robust medical program there are about 900,000 people in the State of Florida that have a medical card which is a pretty significant percentage out of the 23 million people that live there and yeah that’ll be on the ballot this November as we’ll talk about um a little bit later it requires a 60% threshold for approval Florida is really unique in that respect in that most other states only require a simple simple majority and if this passes and gets more than 60% then adult use sales will start 6 months later in Florida right so the elections on November 5th that means that May 5th 2025 or Cinco de Mayo um would be the first day of adult use sales in Florida so um that’s that’s it at a high level although we’ll we’ll kind of unpack the details more in a second yeah I was about to ask you a question and I realize I can probably just Google does Florida have reciprocity for medical cannabis I believe that it does um oh cool that’s cool I believe that that it does the vast majority of states do now um so um I I I do think that it does okay cool um it looks like I just Googled it it looks like it maybe they don’t offer like out ofate medical cards Reciprocity for out of state medical medical cards uh this was uh some article from May 5th 2023 I only ask that just because it’s interesting to see like some do Illinois doesn’t either uh Michigan does Missouri does Missouri very interesting you can get a medical like you could get a medical card and you probably already know that hsh because I could get a California medical card right now being from Illinois so it’s not a completely uni unique idea but anyways sorry for the small tangent just curious thanks thanks for bringing that up and I think after the show I’m going to look into that um a little bit yeah yeah so well look let’s get right to it man there’s like like been a lot of um fervor and I feel like you know on in some cases like I feel like people like myself just trying to point out like uh the shortcomings what I perceive to be the shortcomings there are other people that are saying vote no on this because of this there are some people and like it’s all over the radar it’s crazy to see and I’ll let you unpack this like I saw Ronda Sis’s office is saying this this amendment three doesn’t allow people to Hom grow and it’s going to let people smoke anywhere and everywhere they please first of all like let’s put the smoking thing aside for them to even act like they care about homeg grow Rona santis yeah as if he’s like this homow Advocate totally I think is is laughable but I am bringing these points up to allow you to address them but also to like let people know that like if you start discussing this online sometimes this is it seems like these topics are where the heat comes from on this topic am I right I think you’re totally right I think hom grow and then the charge that this is a monopolistic measure yeah are some of the main arguments made against it um but yeah I mean Cole I I think you’re totally right I would say this amendment three debate both within the Cannabis industry and also in the public sphere has gotten very vitriolic has gotten very emotionally charged um there have been a lot of hyperbolic accusations that that have been made and in my opinion those accusations have not always been fact-based and so I think it might be useful in this conversation for us to take take a step back and um you know before we even talk about Amendment Three to First unpack um what the consequences of cannabis criminalization in the State of Florida is like let’s really talk about how that impacts people’s lives in Florida maybe that’s the first thing that we can do and then I think you know secondly we can discuss you know maybe just some context on how Florida’s institutions work and how its government works you know so if we agree that cannabis criminalization is bad like what are the different avenues for changing that and moving forward and then I think after we set out those facts um then we can have that the last part of the conversation which is okay in light of that fact in light of what we know about the impacts of cannabis criminalization in Florida in light of what we know about the Avenues for changing that policy um how do we size up those arguments against amendment three you know those charges of banning hom grow allegedly right and being a monopolistic measure and you know I think we can discuss do those arguments hold up to Snuff and which of those arguments are maybe fair right I think that’s kind of the point this conversation to analyze those arguments in the context of how Florida um kind of kind of works um so with that I think you know we can just kind of jump into it I mean with the first one which is like hey how does how does what do cannabis criminalization in Florida how does it impact people’s lives and you know Cole you just mentioned DeSantis and if you listen to Ron DeSantis on the campaign Trail he’ll repeatedly say nobody is in jail in Florida for for cannabis possession and so I think it’s worth kind of like unpacking the the facts here from a criminal justice persp perspective and the facts are that normal rates Florida amongst the worst states in the United States for cannabis criminalization it’s near kind of the the bottom of the list despite the fact that it has a robust medical program and to talk about Florida’s laws um if you get caught with more than 20 grams of cannabis in Florida that’s not that’s not a lot of weed right if you get caught with more than 20 grams um that is a you know third deegree felony charge that is punishable with up to 5 years um in prison and just for some context right if you compare this to some of Florida’s Deep South neighbors compare it to Georgia for example which has never been known to be lenient on criminal justice issues in Florida that amount of cannabis is is just a misdemeanor right so if you have more than 20 grams again just repeating that right you can technically be charged with a third degree felony and spend five years uh in in prison now if you have um less than 20 grams it’s only a misdemeanor right but still right you could be subject to up to up to one year uh in prison and just to give you kind of the data last year 16,000 people were charged with simple cannabis possession in Florida and 2,000 people were arrested right for having that very small amount of cannabis just just one joint and you know it gets even worse when it comes to concentrate products if you have any amount of concentrate products in Florida it is a third deegree felony if you have a vape pen in Florida right um it counts as a as a third deegree felony and again is punishable for up to 5 years uh in prison now some people might retort well not everyone gets gets charged in that way and and let’s kind of unpack it one of the more common things that happen right um if you sort of um violate that felony provision and have concentrate products is that your driver’s license right can can be taken away right if you are an immigrant and you um are on a Visa that that Visa uh can can be revoked and so I think it’s important to note that although these penalties aren’t imposed every time there’s a lots of discretion that police officers in Florida have right when assigning these penalties and it is local law enforcement and these you know it’s not always in places like Miami they’re in the other parts of Florida that you might not visit if you’re coming from New York or if you’re coming from California local law enforcement has a tremendous amount of discretion about how to impose these penalties and what we know about the American Criminal Justice System generally but particularly in Florida is that if you are lower income if you are a person of color you are significantly more likely to face those penalties right if you are lower income right and you lose your driver’s license that can be a death sentence economically for example it just so happens that discretion sometimes swings a little racist exactly that’s I think that’s that the heart of a lot of our our cannabis policies I I I think that’s totally right right um I mean that’s been the story right because minorities it’s always been that people like myself white dudes it’s not like we smoke less weed we’re right on par you know we just don’t get caught with it you’re absolutely right um and look that is true in a lot of places in this country not trying to pick on Florida but object and again this is true no matter your politics whether you’re a liberal or whether you’re a conservative it is worse in Florida there’s empirical data that demonstrates that people who are charged with the same crimes like if you’re black you’re more likely to be arrested your sentence is likely to be twice as long right and this is true across the criminal justice system in Florida and that’s just a fact um we have to Avail ourselves of yeah there’s that criminal justice piece of it and and that’s just kind of data right we’re throwing out data on arrests maybe another way to think about it is like um you know if we think about common examples in in our life right so a lot of people may be familiar with the Tyreek Hill incident for those that don’t know Tyreek Hill um is a football player for the you know for the Miami Dolphins and a couple of weeks ago you know he was arrested on his way to a dolphins um game or he had an encounter with the police on the way um to to a Dolphins game right um and I guess I would just say there’s a lot of people in Florida right um who look like Tyreek Hill that are not famous football players and whose activities are not being recorded on camera there’s a lot of police interactions in Florida between people again who are black and look like Tyreek Hill um but don’t have his his level of visibility and so obviously there wasn’t cannabis involved in that particular case but I bring that up because it shines a light on the interactions that routinely happen even to star football players um with with folks who are in communities of color in Florida and law enforcement and one of the things that we know to be true and Cole I saw you kind of posting an article somewhat about this today in Illinois is that cannabis is often used as a pretext right for these police interactions the scent of cannabis right is often used as a mechanism for police to have probable cause to intervene of the lives to use their discretion right to intervene of the lives of those who are poor right and and of those who are and ultimately steal their property right steal their property yeah I and rights yeah exactly right to your point you know there’s no great data on how many police interactions resulted in some kind of violence as a result right of cannabis kind of initiating that that encounter and so I guess that’s a way of saying right like although not everyone who is caught with weed in Florida goes to prison for five years we can see that there’s you know it enables the racially disperate application of our Criminal Justice System all kinds of encounters with police which disproportionately impact people who are from communities of color and then I would also say you know putting putting kind of like being in prison aside um what the restoration rights project has found is that Florida is one of the hardest states in the country to get your record expunged so even if you’re just charged and you don’t go to jail right or you briefly go to jail and you come out of jail that’s going to be on your record for a long time in Florida that makes it much more difficult to obtain employment right that makes it much more difficult to obtain housing and that contributes to a racial wealth Gap um in in Florida right so that’s also deeply Pro problematic and then the other thing you know I think is important to note and not everyone may know this history and I think it’s important to know this history as we’re talking about Florida Florida is really unique in that they have long had what is called a Fel in disenfranchisement rule right and this goes back all the way to the end of the Civil War right so in 1868 a few years after the Civil War ended Florida was looking for a way to disenfranchise newly freed slaves but they couldn’t do that because it was still reconstruction and because the Congress had just passed the 13th 14th and 15th amendments so what Florida did is it passed a law that said if you are a felon then we can take away your vote rights right and so it basically allowed them to disenfranchise newly freed slaves and even though you know black folks made up a minority of residents in Florida shortly after the Civil War within years of this passing in 1868 95% of people who are disenfranchised as a result of the Felon disenfranchisement rule were black right and so you might be asking Cole like why are you talking about this this was a few years after the Civil War like you know that this isn’t relevant well that law although there was a ballot initiative that tried to to pair it back that law is still on the books today so right now in the State of Florida I mean I I really want everyone to think about this 15% one out of six African-Americans of voting age in the State of Florida cannot vote right because of this felon disenfranchisement law so this kind of all paints and a lot of that right a lot of that is because of of of drug crimes so I think that’s the important context to understand regarding the State of Florida there has consistently been and you know I’m not trying to suggest that it’s the year 1868 anymore there’s consistently been a racially disperate application um of of these criminal justice laws we’ve talked about how you could end up you know in jail as a result even if you don’t end up in jail they could take away your Visa they could TW take away you know your driver’s license they could saddle you with a criminal record that makes it very difficult for you to get a job and if you end up in one of those felony buckets then you can’t vote and I got to say we talk often about how Florida is a red State I mean I I would remind you that when Donald Trump beat Hillary Clinton in Florida um in 2016 he won by one point right the fact that one out of six um black folks in Florida cannot vote because of this felon disenfranchisement law has huge impacts not only in Florida but also on National politics and it’s not really an accident that that things work that way so that is probably lose other I didn’t mean to cut you off but you probably lose other rights too like the right to bear arms it’s usually something that comes with a felony depending on the felony just a quick question because you made me think of it and I don’t think you have the answer so maybe we can just laugh about it can Donald Trump even vote then if he’s got a felony that’s yeah that’s that it’s it’s a really good question you know there there are legal Scholars who are who are debating this I don’t think it’s going to stop him from from voting and you know quick side note what’s interesting is that in 2018 right so after 140 years 150 years of of this um of this law existing and it’s totally relevant to our conversation today the the the the conservative folks of Florida actually passed a ballot initiative that said felons should be able to get their voting rights reinstated so 65% of Florida voters actually passed a law saying hey this is BS right like you should be able to if you’ve gotten out of prison to continue voting what is interesting is that the Florida legislature later passed the law and said okay that’s true but by the way you don’t get your voting rights back um until you’ve paid off all of your court fines and fees and I ask you who has the ability to pay off those fines and fees right it’s it’s not poor black folks that ability right so there’s there’s a sort of complicated and muddied kind of like legal state of this fell in disenfranchisement but suffice to say even though their efforts to pair it back like this was done pretty explicitly to disenfranchise you know black people after the Civil War it remains in effect today again notably this would this this provision was reup in the late 1960s during the Civil Rights Movement that was not a coincidence right and so that is that is the shadow that looms over the criminal justice system in Florida and again I think it’s important to note you know there there there may be folks out there again Ronda santis um often says nobody’s in jail uh for cannabis in in Florida sort of alluding to the fact that like hey weed is basically okay here right like no one’s getting in trouble for weed but really I I think for being honest what he’s saying there is no one who is like Ronda santis is getting in trouble for weed right no one who is white who is wealthy and who’s educated is really concerned about cannabis possession in Florida but if you look like Tyreek Hill right um then then I think you you may end up having more more problems and so I think that’s just one comment on the criminal justice debate in Florida yeah I wanted to ask you something that that I feel like adds to your point um when Ronda santis says something like that I saw somebody say Okay Ron the number of people in prison right now or whatever cannabis charge you might be referring to whatever might be low but the number of people that are having to be booked that’s still like that’s the problem there you still like you said there’s discretion there’s still an interaction with law enforcement and you know you can downplay it by saying well they’re not in a cage but it’s like all right well okay yeah but they’re being booked and they’re having to deal with armed uh guards of the state for lack of better words for something that’s a nonviolent crime so they’re in a dangerous situation and they’re getting [ __ ] by the situ by the system I just I don’t know if you can like confirm or deny the kind of like the thesis that I just laid out there but I I heard that as a good I thought it I don’t know if it’s accurate but I thought it was a good counter to desant to this point okay you know may not be a bunch of people in a cage right now but they’re still being processed through the system and your point about you know the disperate enforcement is still powerful but I felt like that kind of like pokes a hole deflates his point a little bit you know totally I mean I think you articulated it well better better than I could so you’re absolutely right like you’re you’re not in a cage but there’s many definition of freedom right one freedom is not being in a cage another you know definition of freedom is not having a potentially violent encounter with law enforcement another definition of freedom is being able to get a job right another definition of freedom is being able to obtain housing another definition of freedom is being able to have your driver’s license so you can go to work right I think we all know many people in this country today that are not in bars but that have been disenfranchised right as a result of their economic circumstances or their their past history history with the criminal justice system so I I I I think you’re totally right and that that I think is the issue you know and I would just kind of conclude maybe this this part of the conversation by saying it is not accurate to state that there are no negative impacts associated with cannabis criminalization in Florida and again when someone like Rona santis is saying that what he’s essentially saying is for people like me right you know there there there aren’t such impacts and I think as many of us have this debate you know um when there are some folks say in the hemp space that try to minimize the impacts of being arrested for weed I’m always curious to sort of look and see do those folks look look like Ronda Sanz or do they look like Tyreek Hill at least in my observation I haven’t really seen a ton of people who look like Tyreek Hill saying hey no big deal weed is totally fine in Florida I don’t know a ton of people in rural conservative Florida who say um you know who are black or low low-income and are saying that that this isn’t um a problem and so I think we have to be mindful of the fact that the criminal justice system particularly in Florida is not applied in a fair way and um just because you have never had those encounters right when you go to Miami Beach doesn’t mean that those encounters don’t exist when you go to the Flor to Panhandle and not to because we’ll get back to this not to take us on too much of a tangent but I get just to illustrate your point I think what you’re saying is and maybe this is too watered down but like I I believe this to be true in many ways so I think this is what you’re saying uh like I could probably again because discretion swings in my favor I could like maybe make the case like this is just thca flower man get off my back Google it I dare you but if you’re like you know somebody where that discretion and that uh understanding doesn’t swing in your way and they’ve already got guns out because they smell weed they don’t [ __ ] care THC whatever you’ve got [ __ ] weed get your hands up and get on the ground like I’m again not to get too like serious but to your point the PE I didn’t think about it that way honestly I was like yeah man I like lean on hemp as like and we’ll get to that again um but I also have a lot of things pulling in my favor so to your point um I do know a few not that it has to be about that like a pick out token you know like I know some black hemp Advocates you know I don’t mean to be like that um but to I I take your point you know um and you can see that I feel like I understand what you’re trying to say so yeah no I think you said it well and you know maybe the only other thing I’ll say is you know I’m not trying to disparage law enforcement I’m not trying to suggest that you know every cop out there is a bad actor we live in a heavily militarized Society right where the cops have a lot of and people especially in the State of Florida have a lot of guns um I guess the point is we are initiating an endless string of needless encounters that serves no public purpose and although in many circumstances right if you’re white you’re okay or you know if you’re black maybe you you turn out okay on the other hand in many circumstances um something tragic you know results whether it might be violence or something that actively derails um your your life and so we are putting there there is no there is no reasonable public good that is served by initiating these encounters between law enforcement and people that merely possess marijuana and that’s you know these are all the reasons why cannabis criminalization in Florida is really problematic and again I know we’ll get to Amendment Three in a second but I I do think that’s really hard to dispute I think it’s really hard to look at the facts in Florida and to minimize the negative impacts of cannabis criminalization again especially if you consider it from the perspective of someone who um doesn’t look like you and may just structurally have more challenging police encounters than than you might yeah I agree with that and I again it sounded like you were about to to move on to the next subject but I wanted to put a bow on it just siding from language from Illinois and I think this is our Point these are the first words out of the Illinois cannabis regulation and tax act this is these are the top priorities in the interest of allowing la law enforcement to focus on violent and property crime the general assembly finds and declares the use of cannabis should be legal for person’s 21 years of age or older should be taxed in a manner similar to alcohol the point that I’m trying to make and I think the point you just tried to make by Leading with this is that yes again we’re not disparaging law enforcement we want to give them the capacity to focus on things that actually matter we’re actually supporting law enforcement I think in that way I think law enforcement would rather not deal with you know oh man you got a little joint in your back pocket I mean again some of them maybe that have ulterior motives and like [ __ ] with people maybe they like using this as an excuse but I think most of them are good people like you said and uh I think they would appreciate the ability to just focus on the things that actually matter you know we need to take away their discretion from these non-violent offenses I I honestly I think that was really well said and you know you highlighting that Preamble there kind of really makes the point right like that it is it is at the beginning of that Preamble for a reason and it illustrates what the reasoning was behind why cannabis legalization is important right and why it’s beneficial for law enforcement yeah yeah hell yeah dude well did you have uh it seemed like you were working and seemed like you were segueing from Criminal Justice maybe to a different point yeah I think that’s the first point which is just criminal jce again which is like hey like it is really problematic from a racial and economic and other perspective cannabis Criminal so if we can agree on that then I think the next step right as we as we have this discussion all of us in this cannabis hemp Community right is okay well then how do we effectuate change I think that’s the next question how does change work in Florida how do Florida’s institutions work right H how do laws change and again right not everybody has time to examine the the governing structures in each state so let’s talk about how Florida works right the the first thing to know about Florida as we were talking about at the beginning of the conversation is Florida is in general really hostile to direct democracy Now what I mean by that is first the ballot initiative process Florida is the only state in the country that requires a 60% threshold in order to have an initiative pass right so in California where I live you know prop 64 passed with 57% of the vote right and so then we were able to legalize cannabis Florida is one of the unique states that requires a 60% threshold so that illustrates they’re not huge fans of direct democracy they don’t really like allowing the people to change laws so that’s one piece of it the other piece of it before you even get to that vote is the Supreme Court review process in Florida and you know some folks on the call may know this Florida like a like a few other states has something called the single subject rule which is to say they’re like okay if you want to put something on the ballot it has to touch on a single subject you cannot P put forth an initiative that says hey let’s like legalize abortion and like legalize weed and legalize Sports gambling right it has to focus on a single subject and that makes some sense right we think people should weigh in on on single questions and it muddies the waters if they weigh in on multiple things so this is a requirement that has a theoretical justification but in Florida the way this rule is applied is basically applied in a way to eliminate any initiative that this the justices or the people in power don’t like right so out of the seven Supreme Court Justices on the Florida Supreme Court right now six of them were appointed by Ron DeSantis so this is a disanti approved court right and they apply this single subject rule in an extremely narrow way right in a way that invalidates basically you know going back to the idea that they don’t love democracy that gives them an excuse to prevent any initiative from appealing appearing on the ballot right so if this initiative Amendment Three which we’ll discuss in a second had said hey both we want to legalize weed um and we want to um and we want to allow people to have their records expunged for example right that would have violated the the single subject rule in in Florida so that’s all a way of saying this rule is applied in a very strict narrow way way to invalidate different initiatives that exist um and so this this year right there were two initiatives that that we’ll talk about today that were making an effort to appear on the ballot and that ultimately did appear on the ballot one was Cannabis legalization and another was an initiative to protect abortion rights right to uh basically extend the sort of U months during which you could have an abortion I think it’s important to note that although these initiatives were drawn were written up in a very narrow way they barely passed the Supreme Court review process process right so the Cannabis initiative passed 5 to2 and the abortion initiative barely passed so it had so like when they let’s just back up for a second before it actually gets onto the ballot before you can even do that [ __ ] 65 what was it 65% threshold 60 60 60 60 um before you even get the opportunity to try to fight that battle you have to it goes through the Supreme Court sorry I just wanted to correct yes and I I should have been more clear about that you’re you’re absolutely no I think you were I think I just I missed it but thank you for yeah clarifying that you know um totally anyways though for sure and and we should note that there were attempts to put something on the ballot for cannabis in 2020 and 2022 right and of those initiatives failed and part because of the single subject rule so so yeah this year the Supreme Court had an April 1 deadline to certify this for approval so on April 1st they said okay this can appear on the ballot and this November we’ll vote um but they appli this rule in a really strict way and and I’ll just say right um you know basically there are some justices on the Supreme Court that still have some measure of judicial Integrity right this this cannabis initiative and again this is the criticism right that is being leveraged by its opponents was written in a super super super narrow way to touch on a single subject and just to say hey we’re going to legalize cannabis right now um despite that you know um several justices tried to um gut both the Cannabis and um the abortion initiatives but some right you know five in the case of cannabis and four in the case of abortion of the seven decided to let it stand because they basically knew if they didn’t let these initiatives move forward they were basically undermining the entire initiative process in Florida right these initiatives were written in such a narrow way that these justices despite the fact that they are partisan like you know like like a lot of Judges out there knew that if they took that step right then they would have essentially you know been violating the Florida Constitution right and and would have been you know inval validating initiatives that they just disagreed with so despite that fact these initiatives barely appeared on the ballot and it’s notable that after these justices to some people surprise allow these initiatives to move forward like Ronda santis has been really seriously criticizing them publicly if anyone’s followed his comments especially in re recent weeks he has been criticizing those decisions saying the Supreme Court did not do its job by allowing these initiatives onto the ballot basically signaling hey if you want me to appoint you in the future like you’re going to have to show complete falty um to to me and so I I I I I think it’s you know I think the main point there is that you know Florida requires that 60% threshold it makes it really hard for these initiatives to appear on the ballot there’s a theoretical justification here that it has to touch on a single subject but that rule is basically applied in a way to invalidate initiatives that folks disagree with and we can understand why right like given that this abortion initiative appeared on the ballot 43 because of that Donald Trump has to talk about the abortion initiative now I’m sure he would not like to talk about it he would prefer not to talk about it but now he has to because it appears on on the ballot so I think that’s that’s one piece of this right um which is to say Florida’s really hostile to direct democracy it’s really hard for initiatives to pass and even you know when they appear on the ballot they have to be written in a very narrow way so that’s when it comes to direct democracy so someone might say in response well just just pass a law right you know um if you don’t want something to go through the initiative process you should just go ahead um and and pass a law and and there I think the important thing to understand is that you know Florida is a very gerrymandered state right it has a GOP uh super majority and again just to unpack this a little bit a lot of people think of Florida as like a deep red State and that’s why it has a GOP super majority in its legislature but just to be factual right in the last four presidential elections the Democrats have won twice and the Republicans have won twice right Barack Obama won Florida in 2008 and 2012 and then Donald Trump won Florida in 2016 and then in 2020 right so out of the past four presidential elections the Democrats have won twice and the Republicans have won twice when Trump won he won by really narrow margins and again I’m just trying to poke holes in this thesis that Florida is some super red State yeah when Trump beat Hillary Clinton he beat Hillary Clinton by one point right when when Trump beat Joe Biden in Florida he he beat Trump he he beat Biden by three points right so decent margins but not overwhelming right when Barack Obama won Florida right he won the first time by seven points and and the second time by by Four Points much much bigger margins and so I think that’s all a way of saying yes Florida has a really conservative legislature right they have the kind of legislature that kind of um looks like Texas but Florida’s actually much closer um to to a 5050 um State and because of that right the Florida legislature because it has a super majority will never legalize weed I mean it’s really that simple a Republican state senator by the name of Brandis has been trying to legalize weed in Florida for nearly a decade right he basically said the Florida legislature is is never going to do it so again I think it’s important to understand as we’re having this conversation about how change happens right at the very beginning we just kind of punctured the myth that it’s no big deal that weed is illegal in Florida and so hopefully again before we get to Amendment Three hopefully we can all agree that that policy needs to be changed we just talked about how narrow that Avenue for change is um within the ballot initiatives and then the other point is that it is going to be lit quite literally impossible to ever get the Florida Republican party and their GOP super majority to legalize weed the other thing that I will say right that I think just confirms this is this year the State of Florida introduced a bill that would raise the threshold for ballot initiatives from 60 to 67% right and that would basically mean that it’s impossible the the initiative process would would would never pass and again why everybody has to agree yeah I mean it really is deeply anti-democratic right um and and again what why did they do that because and this goes back to my point about Florida not being as r as people think even though they have Ronda santis at the helm that’s because Florida has a history of voting for Liberal ballot initiatives because when you allow the people to weigh in on those issues they’re actually broadly supportive right Florida passed that law that I mentioned in 2018 giving felons the right to vote again even though the legislature you know later gutted it Florida passed a law right um when when Trump was the ballot in Florida Florida passed a minimum wage law that got 10 points more support than Donald Trump Florida passed a law in 2016 that legalized medical cannabis and it got almost 72% of the vote right um which is the most that any ballot initiative in Florida history has has ever gotten and so there’s there’s kind of this this feeling like oh isn’t that so weird Florida this deep red State keeps voting for these liberal ballot initiatives but it’s like no Florida is a deep red State and I’m not trying to deny that there are strong conservative elements in Florida like obviously I get that but Florida State Legislature looks like Texas even though Florida is not Texas right Florida is a much swinger State than than Texas and so given that right given the legislature’s um interest in raising the threshold to 67% I would just say it’s 2024 or bust guys right this is quite literally one of our last opportunities in near history right um in the near future to legalize cannabis in Florida and again I can say that with confidence because the Florida legislature is not going to do it they’re likely going to try and raise the you know the threshold for this appearing on the ballot to 67 which would make this nearly impossible and now that Ronda santis has basically signaled like hey if you let these initiatives on in the like I’m looking for judges that will not allow these initiatives on you know every Supreme Court Justice in Florida will will take their their cues and so I think that’s just you know again before we talk about Amendment Three itself and these these comments about it being monopolistic and and homow I think what is really hard to argue is these first two points one cannabis criminalization in Florida is D deeply problematic particularly racially economically and otherwise and number two it’s not like we have abundant options about how we move forward here there’s a very narrow window and a very unique opportunity which is right now in November 2024 um to to legalize cannabis and so as we’ll go on in a second we can acknowledge some of the flaws in this initiative and we can be honest about them right but it’s also important for us to recognize that this is a unique moment in history and anyone who was suggesting right that hey this should be done through the legislature I mean that’s a kind of willful dishonesty right that’s not just ignorance like that that is a lie right this is the opportunity um to do this and then I think as we talk about Amendment Three I mean the way I think about it right now that we’ve kind of set the table is like in light of what we just discussed in light of How Deeply problematic you know we being illegal in Florida is and in light of the options we had ahead of us like um you know what are the arguments for rejecting this initiative right in light of how awful this the status we before we get to arguments on rejecting just cuz uh if you don’t mind I wanted to L like Cu uh one of the I wanted to let you finish your point about single subject and stuff and I’m not my I totally agree with everything that you laid out um I’ve heard about everything that you laid out in fact I don’t know if you made this point I think you made this point but just in case you didn’t to reiterate this point and correct me if I’m wrong um but as you said there have been former ballot measures that have f failed because they were seen as like too not narrow enough and those ballot measures like did have hom grow and stuff uh in addition to like maybe some of these components so like you said am I correct in understanding they narrowed it down so that it would better qualify as that single subject idea now here’s my question and I’m not like again not even trying to like debate these points because I feel like you’re going to pick up what I’m putting down cuz you you did a really good job of setting the stage and I have some now that I’ve seen how Illinois politics works it sounds a lot like Florida politics in a different you know a different way but there’s these these silly Hoops you have to jump through uh not only in the political realm but like yeah in the leag trying to pass policy and everything else and like in Illinois before I get to this like for example yeah it’s really hard to get something on as a ballot measure I don’t know I don’t know the numbers like you know with Florida you know where it’s like 60% like I don’t know if Illinois has a threshold like like four ballot measures or anything I can just tell you that like from what I understand it’s really hard to even get something on as a ballot measure in Illinois just because of how the legisl legislature has postured themselves uh if you will so in understanding that like and giving you that and kind of like again thanking you for setting that stage because if I didn’t know that about like have that little intro into Florida politics I’ve heard that point made and I try to be cognizant of like hey Cole some of your critiques about like Amendment Three are because they have to like conform to that single subject definition and my thing is and again I’m just curious your take on this like I view legalization as a single as a single subject and that includes those like I I it’s crazy to me that it’s like I don’t know how we have to word it but it is a single subject like and I I think so do I’m again not to debate you do you recall did they have like did they issue the Supreme Court like so you know you mentioned the odor prooof thing they issued like some of their basis upon why they ruled the way they did some people decided not to rule for example do you recall like specifically with hom grow or did they call anything out like that where they were like that is too expansive you know totally that that’s exactly right so there have been two I mean everything you said um I I agree with right so there have been two prior you know efforts in modern history to legalize you know recreational Cannabis there was one in 2020 and that failed primarily because it was trying to get off the ground during Co and ran into some funding you know challenges there was also single subject concerns but that’s part of the reason that the one in 2020 failed the 2022 the potential 2022 initiative failed because it violated the single subject rule because of that hom growth provision because it contained it in there and so what happened with the Supreme Court was rendering its decision is they issued a road map right because they said heyy this violated the SLE subject rule because again I mean I take your did they say how well I mean because it is too I mean according to the way a lawyer reads this those are two different subjects now I take your point that this is all the same thing but in their mind it’s one thing to legalize sort of The Possession and sale of cannabis it’s a quite another thing to legalize the right to grow it in certain amounts right in in your backyard now even what you just said though like and I get what you’re saying again I’m not even trying to debate you but like how do they View possession is sale and sale literally two distinct terms as a single subject that’s that’s the counterargument right you know what I mean argument you could break any subject into a series of subsidiary smaller subjects so yeah I I agree with you if I were on the Florida Supreme Court right um and I think that’s a point that the one liberal Justice on the court made in in a in a descent before um but yeah you’re totally right I think the Crux of what you’re describing is there um is any way that you can c cize something into a series of distinct subjects and based on that use it to say hey hey this is invalid so I I I don’t have a great response for you there other than the fact that the Supreme Court basically said hey dude you guys included hom grow that violates the single subject Rule and then what they did is they issued what is called a road map right like it’s kind of incumbent upon judges when they say Hey you violated this rule you know law kind of dictates that they have to describe for you what constitutes compliance so long story short the smart and safe initiative you know after um you know after that happened in 2022 scrupulously read that ruling right by the Florida Supreme Court and they basically said like hey guys like if you want to get this in front of us again it has to be drawn as narrowly as possible Right which which again right Amendment Three basically says these medical businesses are now adult used businesses it doesn’t really say anything more than that um and I mean look like they just strike it they just strike medical and they just say marijuana production yeah that’s right and and if you think about it right like if you take the the the medical initiative if that passed right if that complied with the legal requirements that exist the best way to get an adult adult use initiative is to just strip the medical language right and make that adult use language because it’s quite so will the medical program be no more no the medical program will will will continue to exist right but this is of like Hey we’re gonna pass another initiative and we’re gonna substitute in right is the medical program also an amendment yes the medical program passed by amendment in 2016 got yeah and so in in in 2016 it passed with 72% of the of the vote nice nice but you take my point and again I’m not even trying to since you you know we [ __ ] dude one of the main things I talk about on my show besides this the well and we’ll get to him too and you know I’ll kind of make the pitch because I feel like it relates to what I’m about to say like the the idea that this stuff could go on and some fashion and by this stuff I mean the criminalization of cannabis uh just um it’s a punch to the gut you know when they like like when that’s the result of of it because it that argument was made in Illinois that argument’s been made in Florida like people come up with different arguments as to how you like we keep basically cannabis policy conservative you know um and I know it’s like maybe I’m young and a little bit too like I maybe too optimistic and such I’m just actually curious since you know we both set the stage and we both do have a clear passion for the criminalization of cannabis again not even just trying to not even trying to debate you setting aside the whole debate setting aside Florida amendment 3 isn’t it just a [ __ ] punch to the gut that these like bureaucrats and policy makers and some lobbyists even have managed to complicate such a simple [ __ ] subject like I like to say it this way before we move on like look don’t get me wrong there are always there have always been dry spells in my time trying to get weed but my problem with weed was never getting weed I could always get weed again sometimes dry that sucks that builds character though I always like to say just jokingly um anyways uh the problem was always I was looking over my shoulder even acknowledging less so maybe than others but still I was concerned about it you know and I’ve been pulled over and I’m like is this going to be it and fortunately I’ve lucked out many times you know what I mean but like that was always the concern in the fact that I actually want to give credit where credit is due and maybe this is how we can segue and I actually said this on a recent podcast one of the things I like most about Florida’s Amendment Three is it’s creating one of the largest possession limits in the country and um Donald Trump referred to it as small amounts which I love I agree 3 o is a small amount um you know uh it’s a good start though it’s better it makes Illinois it makes Colorado I think even maybe California I don’t know the possession limit in California but definitely Illinois and Colorado I know it’s like 30 gram possession limit that makes it look small they got three ounces they’re showing them how it’s done so I like to give credit where credit is due there that’s really awesome totally 100% I mean I that that huge step forward there for sure I wanted to give you the space on the question because I kind of segwayed setting all those policies aside isn’t it doesn’t it [ __ ] suck that it’s been it’s been so like it’s made been made so complicated when it’s really [ __ ] simple you know I mean I I I I I totally agree with all that right and you mentioned like poit bureaucrats the only way the Cannabis movement has has moved forward is because of citizens driving it Forward right like let’s not forget when Colorado legalized in 2012 every single Statewide official literally every single Statewide official in Colorado came out against that initiative and it passed with 55% of the vote right so this is a citizen driven movement and again this this goes back to why why I think things like Amendment Three are so important it’s one of the very narrow Avenues we have to exhibit how the public feels about this topic and to move move things forward so and maybe this is where you’re about to segue but I the only thing I’ll say about that I agree with like how you laid that out but it it’s unfortunate that it feels like and I feel like this is another talking point so I’m sure the talking point that heard but I think it’s true because this happened in Illinois too it feels like we’re living in a Gilded Age that we can only get policy passed if certain corporations support it you know what I mean like and I’m not knocking them like I actually am thankful there it’s again I’ve never actually said vote no on Amendment Three I’ve had people on my show that has all I’ve said is I just think it’s a step in the right direction it doesn’t go far enough if I were in Florida probably vote for it you know I don’t know I I just so that but I wouldn’t have to cuz that’s what I did in Illinois honestly um I and then I learned about the shortcomings of our system and now that’s what I talk about now and I guess my whole sorry to kind of like go on because I want to give you more space the reason I’m so passionate in pointing out the shortcomings of amendment three and I think maybe sometimes people wonder this like you’re [ __ ] from Illinois who the [ __ ] are you to talk about this it’s like yeah exactly I am from Illinois and I’ve learned how hard it is it’s been four years five years years almost and we can’t get policy ped we just just two years ago we made it so that people that were charged with cannabis crimes could get their cannabis crimes expunged and people might try to fact check me here what I mean by that is if you sorry there’s a drug testing requirement up until two years ago and you couldn’t get your cannabis record expunged unless you stop smoking weed for like a month otherwise they’re like no so it’s like uh that was so hard to get through we can’t get H growth through and I guess like my whole the reason I’m so passionate about reminding people that there are shortcomings and something to fight for again not a reason to vote no but something to keep your [ __ ] mind on and don’t forget is because in Illinois I feel like because there’s like a weed dispensary in a lot of Big Towns people have just become apathetic to the idea of any more reform like even my parents sometimes because I do this podcast like why are you complaining about weed like you can just go to the store and it’s like yeah but that’s not really what it’s all about you know totally totally yeah I mean I I think you made a bunch of good points there I just want to resp sorry for that was kind a watershed of points but you’re good first I’m sympathetic to the idea that many people are like oh the issu is resolved right when I talked to all my friends in Colorado they’re like we can’t get legislators to do anything because they they we’ve dealt with this issue a year ago so I I’m totally sympathetic to that right and there’s still more to do I want to make a point though about your point about corporate power because I agree with you right like I’m a citizen of this country I don’t want policy to be governed by large corporate interests I don’t the average American doesn’t want that right but think about why these companies have to spend that money in the first place you know why why is it that that infusion of corporate cash is necessary well it’s necessary because running Statewide campaigns are really expensive and you have to run those campaigns because legislators are ignoring popular will so I’m sympathetic to the idea that it’s like only when corporations get involved can we move things forward but the only reason those corporate resources are necessary is to overcome the legislative inertia that comes from legislators ignoring their constituents so it’s kind of Rich to hear you know the Republican legislature of Florida that has ignored their citizenry on this issue for over a decade then try to point to Big Bad Corporation and look I get it right most Americans understandably are skeptical of s of corporate power so it’s a really compelling yeah I don’t mean to cut you off but I think you know one of the thoughts somebody told me last night because I premiered my mini documentary where I point out out that you know again our policy was a step in the right direction and it mainly got passed to your point the only reason we got a lot of energy because they poured like over $600,000 into a measure in Illinois um and that’s what we know of there’s a lot of information that’s protected by Illinois law that that’s just what you can find uh via public record that’s from the Chicago Tribune um so I guess one thing that somebody said to me last night that I thought was interesting because to your point that’s how the sometimes things get done I think like I hope I hope that the role that I play is redefining because I feel like what they do to your point is they’re like almost fulfilling a role in corporate social responsibility a term I learned about in like some [ __ ] econ class or some or I don’t even know what class it was but I I they said it the other night and I was like oh my God that’s the term I’ve been looking for corporate social responsibility so I feel like that’s their first step passing these measures which in some ways we can both agree are baby steps you know like if you don’t have hom grow or something like that it’s like well you could improve in that way um I guess what I’m I hope my role is in talking about those things and pointing them out is that I redefine what their responsibility is and hopefully they completely legalize cannabis like we expect it to be you know what I mean totally I mean again lot got lost to my point Sorry I think we’re absolutely on the on the same page and I I think that’s the point of this conversation at least you know what I hope people take away from this conversation or at least the dialogue you and I are having even if we just you know think of it as a private dialogue is I think the right move is yes Amendment Three is a step forward and then we have more work to do right like that’s the way that I think about it this is the critical step forward that moves us into a new world which allows us to do the things we need to do to truly um make this plant available to people and so that’s a way your your critique is valuable in that respect because it reminds people that the work is not done on November 5th so that’s why I think it’s important to point out everything that needs to be done after this and to your point now is more important it’s like um almost an addition to cannabis especially for Floridians that may be tun tuning in now is more important than ever to get involved not only with cannabis but if they’re trying to [ __ ] increase the percentages for your ballot measures if you have a problem with homeg grow not being in there that’s going to be a issue for you in the future you’re going to run into that is an issue the other point you made is you said this will be if you say this will be done through the legislature that’s a lie or something to that effect somebody said that I don’t know that maybe you were quoting somebody else so with that in mind Floridians like you already have an uphill battle so now is the time to get involved you know what I mean totally totally especially before they make it [ __ ] harder you know so totally I mean it’s hard to get 67% vote on on anything so yeah 100% yeah I don’t know where you want to move on from here I mean we can talk about keep talking about Amendment Three in or uh FL hemp in Florida but that is a depressing thought as well not to I want that was a really optimistic note I just went on but I it’s depressing to think that like you just you kind of set the stage with vote for Amendment Three and I I agree step in the right direction we both agree step in the right direction it is depressing to think that next steps are going to be really [ __ ] hard especially if something like those things pass through and again I hope that I hope that some companies listening right now and fulfills and like for example TR Le said they wanted hom grow like I really hope I doubt Kim Rivers is listening right now but I hope somebody that know like I hope they [ __ ] follow up on that commitment yeah and and and well let’s talk about that I mean let’s talk about yeah yeah I mean because I know that they do like I’m not I want to be clear I know that they’re not completely like anti- hungry uh they like sell clones and genetics and other states I’m not even you know that’s not really like the argument I’m making again I’m trying to redefine like Corporate social responsibility this term I was reminded of the other night and uh I hope that that’s their goal like you don’t just do this little thing to get you like a lot of money like you got to follow up you know totally let’s let’s talk about that because the terms Monopoly and homerow been or homeg grow ban have been thrown out a lot so I think let’s next like um entertain both of those arguments right so let’s let’s let’s start with this argument right that Amendment Three creates a monopoly right and then and then let’s talk about the the homow um uh sort of argument so first I want to say like look I think most Americans share those antim monopolistic values right we are all consumers we all intuitively understand that a monopoly is not good for us right I think we I think no matter your politics there’s a broad understanding that monopolies do not serve consumers and that the only way that capitalism can work is if there is competition because that ensures that the interests of consumers are protected so I guess that’s the first point I think you will find very few people that are pro Monopoly right and I certainly share those anti-monopoly values if I could just quickly like just Cu uh Lisa Khan from the FTC just went on John Stewart a few months ago I think that’s her name she’s the whatever um people know what I’m talking about the lead the the head person at FTC and they were talking about monopolies and just if I could really quick it seems like the issue isn’t even with especially with Florida it’s not Monopoly it’s an oligopoly like in all of our [ __ ] Industries you know um I have no nothing else to say other than that I’m just saying like I just I get caught up in words right and I think you are I it’s not that we would disagree on that I just wish like the public discourse on it it seems like we’re talking about Monopoly as if truly is the only one to gain but and from my perspective it’s like if you want to be technical about the market that’s being set up it’ll be truly GTI what is it Sunburn and 20 others or something like that I don’t even know all their names and we’re not going to run through them but you know it’s a 20 20ish right so not a huge market and maybe a f maybe more licenses but that again that’s through the legislature which they don’t do anything yeah well let’s talk about that so so first right um I think it’s kind as you were talking about Cole right it’s kind of a semantic game is a monopoly is an oligopoly right um and and it’s hard to sort of draw draw that line um but I mean on this General conversation like uh first I think there’s a good you know you can kind of rebut the claim that it’s a monopoly right like there are 22 different lenses in Florida right and obviously true leave is is the biggest player but as we commonly use that term I think it’s it’s a little misleading to characterize this as as a monopoly but but even if we did right um the argument is like look Amendment Three is bad because it does not um include new licenses it does not mandate new license expansion right now again as we just discussed if Amendment Three said let’s legalize weed and you must issue a bunch of new licenses then it would not have passed the single subject rule so again I think no matter your position on Amendment Three it is really hard to dispute the basic fact that this initiative would not be on the ballot right um uh if it had mandated new licenses so that’s the next now a few more things that I think are really important right to consider here the initiative does say we can’t mandate this but the legislature right it does explicitly say the legislature has the right to issue new licenses right and again that’s the only way this initiative could have been written right so it says like they couldn’t have been written in a way to mandated but it does kind of make a nod towards the legislature to to issue new licenses now to your point Cole right a skeptic might hear that and be like yeah dude but the legislature is not going to do anything right so that’s all just kind of like noise now now let’s think about right uh disantis for example right um has been making the claim that this this is a cartel and this is monopolistic but here’s what we also know and this is just a fact right Florida had another licensing round a year ago right where they planned to issue two dozen more licenses right so right now they have 22 licenses and then they had a licensing round like a year ago um whose results were supposed to be out by now um in which they would issue you know they would basically double or more than than double the market right now Ronda santis has been blocking those licens from being issued and so just just to be clear right if Ronda Sis’s interest is creating a competitive market isn’t broadening competition right um it is hard to view that as sincere when he is in practice right kind of blocking um those licenses so again just on this sincerity of his comments if he is if he is actually concerned about making this a more competitive market well that doesn’t really hold up to Snuff because he is blocking the issuance of those licenses now number two right um in delaying those licenses from being issued he is bankrupting those operators right those operators have been sitting on assets for a year so by delaying that process he is ensuring that only the most well- capitalized actors that can sustain that yearslong delay will be able to open their businesses whenever they’re issued so again this is just saying when it comes to Ronda santis himself and we can talk about other folks in the Cannabis Community there’s no way to defend his comments because he right um is is blocking more licenses from being issued I would also say if there are folks out there who are criticizing you know the initiative for not issuing more license if they just happen to be part of that Coalition right that donated $5 million to Ron de santis like I bet you could get a hold of him right or I bet you could at least get a hold of James you know ult me his chief of staff and so I think it would be a lot more credible if someone you know if a hemp operator were to say I’m opposed to Amendment Three but I’m supporting Ron de santis and I called up Ron de santis with the $500,000 check I wrote to him right and I had a conversation with him about the need to issue more licenses presumably if you were motivated by a desire for a more competitive market like I would love to see the receipts right in which you were you were advocating for that so that’s all a way of saying there’s one person right that has the power to create a more competitive market in Florida and right now that person is Ronda santis who is making these charges that that it’s Monopoly so that’s what I would say the other thing that I would say and again these are just objective facts Ronda santis last year raised the licensing fee for for Florida cannabis operators from $60,000 to a million now just think about that he he raised the fee from $60,000 to more than a million dollars by more than 20x right if this was someone who was really genuinely concerned with allowing ordinary people to participate in this market it’s hard to square that with his raising of the license fees again this does the exact same thing it ensures that only the most well capitalized actors right can participate in this market and one other thing I’ll say right is that you know those are the ways in which I think disantis right is is being insincere and again right I would say if you’re one of those people that is currently allied with Ronda santis if you’ve given him hundreds of thousands of dollars to fight this initiative I bet you could get him on the phone right and I think it would be more credible for you to say hey you know I got to santis on the phone and we share this interest in creating a more competitive market and he isn’t doing anything but the the final thing I’ll say is there’s this suggestion that the adult use Market would sort of codify a monopoly but I and I I I’m I’m interested in your take on this Cole I think it’s just the opposite like adult use will ultimately create a more competitive market right adult use is what will make license expansion possible now how do we know this well there are already supporters of amendment three that have introduced bills right to increase the number of licenses if Amendment three passes right so Carlos sko Smith who’s a state senator in Florida and a big champion of amendment three has explicitly you know committed to introducing license expansion you know when Amendment three passes and so I predict what kind though like is it open licensing uh I I I I don’t know I don’t know I didn’t know if like they’ve because I know some people have also promised like to do I might be wrong on this correct me if I’m wrong but like some people have like said we’ll do trailer bill for hom grow or something like that you know um but I didn’t know like if there’s any talk about like new licenses what the cuz I mean honestly I agree with you that it’s not Monopoly like people describe there was a lawsuit in Illinois they people describe Illinois as a monopoly and I just know a few economists from the University of Illinois to be nerdy enough to be like actually it’s an oligopoly and I mean it is an oligopoly like at least the way like let me just put it this way how many people before 2016 or when did you say medical marijuana was passed in 2016 um how many people you think were selling weed in Florida I probably a lot illegally yeah probably a ton yeah yeah more than 40 right you know yeah without question yeah that’s my thing it’s like I agree with you actually that Ronda sis is speaking out of both sides of his mouth like I don’t think he actually wants an open cannabis economy by any means again like this idea that he’s a homeg grow proponent or any of these things I think he’s just trying to uh defeat Amendment Three and many people have been saying that it’s and also an effort to like down ballot defeat Amendment four or something but again that’s a different topic um I don’t know I just uh I think it is important to acknowledge that this is like a Florida is widely acknowledged as like one of the Premier limited license markets in the country which is like is an oligopoly you know it’s like why those it’s like the basically Theo of all of those companies like curea GTI they all say like we we look for limited Supply markets you know um they do not like open competition markets you know what I mean and so when you have people like that at the table I just and they they are the ones that can pass legislation again this isn’t a reason not to vote for Amendment Three it just makes me less hopeful that you’re going to see like it just because like I thought that was going to be the case in Illinois but again everybody just has become apathetic like you just buy weed in the dispensary now man meanwhile though the arrests continue in Illinois um for things due to cannabis odor like they address the the issue of burnt odor today but raw cannabis is still they noted and this isn’t being reported yet I actually hope to speak to some reporters later today um raw cannabis is still a decision they have to make so for right for right now you can still get busted for buying weed from a dispensary if the cop can smell it anyways though um I think we’re you know on the same page I just wanted to like kind of like not even I just wanted to acknowledge since you were you were dropping some facts like yes it’s not a monopoly I agree with you on that it’s a lot closer to an oligopoly and that’s why when he uses the word cartel it’s like I think like if you look up oligopoly like the term cartel is actually usually used in the context of olical olop I can’t say the word um those types of markets so yeah let’s be clear right I’m not I’m not denying that Florida is a limited license Market my ideal Market is a market like Michigan for example right or a market like Colorado or a market like New Mexico right where there are thousands of different operators out there right but I think the question right is not is Florida’s Market better than Michigan’s I think the question is how do we broaden access to Florida’s market right and and I think the facts clearly state that there is legislative supported effort right to issue these two dozen licenses that to antis is kind of sitting on and that many people who claim to want a more open market they don’t seem to be raising that issue at all and I think the other thing to note is like there is legislation to increase the number of licenses now to your point is does that have specifics around it I I I don’t know those specifics but there’s no world in which those licenses are going to expand but an adult use world right um and I was only I wasn’t disagreeing with any of those things I was only pushing back on the notion that you were saying like this adult use it’s going to create a competitive market and I’m like I get what you’re saying like it’s gonna open up you know large a cannabis Market that’s pretty there’s a lot of stores and stuff and there’s a lot of people in Florida I get what you’re saying but like I was just trying to point out like the low number of participants and it sounds like we’re not disagreeing on that like um you know what I mean and it sounds like we agree obviously there’s better markets than than others so I wasn’t really trying to make it you know like a debate on that point I was just trying to like kind of push back on the notion that like because it almost made you made it sound like something was going to be different it might be different because of some of these legislation has been proposed but who knows totally yeah the point I’m making is that it would make it a more competitive market and I mean that even in a from a brand perspective I mean think about this Florida does not have a ton of of great cannabis Brands right now by virtue of its vertically integrated structure that’s why these operators are partnering with brands in other states because they recognize in an adult use world they’re going to have to have more skews out there right and so in a world where Florida goes adult use there are people like my friend Ted litty right who runs alien Labs a guy who grew up in Reading California and I don’t know if you’re from California reading is not the Hollywood Hills right um in reading the only two ways you can make a living make a decent living is if you sell weed illegally or if you’re a fire firefighter right so this guy grew up dirt poor right and is now partnered with trully to bring this amazing product alien labs to Florida I’m not trying to deny that you know truly would be a huge beneficiary of this of Florida turning adult use but the notion that all of this money is just kind of going into TR Leaf’s pocket or going into Kim River’s pocket I mean it makes for a compelling sort of um rallying cry but that’s just not true right there are hundreds of different brands right that will be able to Avail themselves of this massive Market that will get a piece of the pie economically right in in an adult youth world so I guess if I were to distill these points down again it’s not you know sort of to deny that Florida has a very limited license structure that there were more 40 people selling weed in Florida prior to 2016 but it’s more to say here’s where we are today right and if our interest sincerely isn’t broadening access to this Market what enables that and I would contend the facts suggest that an adult use World enables that and I would also contend that some of the critics of amendment three their credibility is shot because they are literally thwarting the license expansion um that that they claim to to care about yeah well to your point just really quick just give you uh little like uh like if I go to Florida today even though I have my medical card in Illinois like I don’t have any reciprocity if I go to Florida and you guys pass Amendment Three I will be able to have a possession limit of three ounces and I could go to a store as a non-resident I’m just saying like benefits as a non-resident I’m you know we could debate the the res you know benefits residents don’t get get like we’ve touched on home grow and stuff like that but like non-residents benefit from these policies too so I just kind of making that point because there’s a lot of transplants in Florida you know people coming in and out and visiting and such and I didn’t really think about that you know we LED with oh no reciprocity and I was like [ __ ] I’m kind of just [ __ ] in Florida right now you know so uh that would that would be a change anyways though sorry small point I just it was a light bulb that went off no totally no I I I appreciate that um and and maybe the last point on monopolies then we can quickly touch on hom grow although we’ve talked about it a decent amount but just a couple comments on the Monopoly thing I think my my question to folks is and again right I don’t think any of us like monopolies I want to be able to go to the State of Florida and to go to 800 different dispensaries owned by 200 different people with 5,000 different brands that’s the world I want to live I’m with you right but I guess my question for folks who say this is a monopoly so vote against it is how far does that logic extend right so in the State of Florida Publix the supermarket has like 45% of the market share I mean would you say we should ban all groceries stores until we can create a more economically competitive market I I mean it’s a it’s a that’s like the that’s like my favorite argument to use against limited licensing not that we’re debating that right now but like just exactly that like these big super stores can exist and then I’ve got like a small family-owned meet and Deli down the road and they don’t care about Walmart because they sell better meat than Walmart um and uh but to your point like there’s nothing stopping them from open open in the door and that’s what I [ __ ] hate about the Cannabis business in almost every state it’s like if you actually want to stop the criminalization of cannabis and like people actually pushing unregulated products like you have to make them want to participate in your legal Market give them an opportunity and make them want to like I feel like in Michigan the people reason people don’t sell hemp or even really do [ __ ] Black Market is because there’s just a easy legal way to participate so it’s like why not pay the license fee and just [ __ ] legally participate you know totally I mean first of all I totally agree with that on on Michigan right and and H just given how Democratic that market is yeah obviously the Michigan Market isn’t perfect but I think you can make the case right that it fills you know consumers get access conveniently I mean again as a consumer that’s that’s the world I want to live in where I can easily get access to Legal product so yes for sure even though it’s not perfect but the point I was making with the Public’s analogy is sort of like again if you’re going to make the argument that we should ban in activity right because the purveyors of that good are too concentrated and I get that right like I wish I was as rich as the folks who like ran true leave I get it I’m I’m with you there right but I guess my question is and I think it’s a reasonable question if this position wants to be taken seriously is how far does that logic extend and my question to you or to anyone is would it be okay to just close all the grocery stores in Florida because Publix has a dominant position are we okay Banning consumer access to what we consider to be an essential good because the economic purveyors of that good are not to our liking um and I get that’s kind of an extreme example but I do think it’s it’s a reasonable question and the other I think reasonable question to be asked right is is again like I’m I’m sympathetic to a lot of these concerns that Amendment Three is not perfect but I guess my question would be if you’re against amendment three wouldn’t you also be against legalization in Arizona right because Cur Leaf has 20 of the 170 licenses wouldn’t you also be against the measure in Missouri because good day Farm has 20 of the dispensaries wouldn’t you also be against the medical program in Virginia because it carves it up into five Health Service areas right um wouldn’t you also um be that’s the thing I I just wish this this this discussion wasn’t so like for and against I wish it was like more I feel like I have one of the more and I think this is why you reached out to me I’m sorry I just cut you off because I I definitely did but I I feel like I have one of the more reasonable takes where I’m just like vote on it it’s a step on the right direction like like get what you can take the win while you can get it um we’ll get to hemp that’s kind of how I look at hemp um but like you know um and I don’t know uh I think it’s a step in the right direction I’ve just been trying to point out you know the the things we got to work on after that you know totally I don’t mean to cut off your point but yeah I just wish that I wish that that wasn’t the conversation that I know that it’s not the we having but most people like you said when you reached out to me that’s the conversation they’re having why you vote for or why you vote for against and it’s like why don’t we like take a step in the right direction and why can’t it be yes and totally you know I mean I think that’s that’s the Crux of it right and oh [ __ ] I think I just made the new Twitter mantra for free for three yes and yes and right I like it I like it God I me you said it well Cole I mean the way I think about it is you can be skeptical of corporate power right you can be skeptical of monopolies you can recognize the imperfections within the system right and still believe that you know that moving forward here is the best way to get to where we want to get right and and again the reason I’m kind of posing these questions right about like are you against do you want to ban grocery stores are you against all these other like you know I think you could criticize Ohio Virginia Arkansas I mean you could criticize most programs utilizing this logic and so I guess the question is are we okay for stalling right all of this progress right because we know that when we leave cannabis we take a huge step towards normalizing it which says nothing of the fact that any federal progress is Downstream of the state progress are are we okay right um are are are we okay for styling all of that progress right and so I guess just to kind of wrap that up is it’s it’s um it’s not unreasonable to think about what the logical consequences of that position are and I think if you are prepared to fervently like say you’re against amendment 3 in Florida you should also be prepared publicly to say and I reject legalization in Arizona and I reject legalization in Missouri and I reject legalization in Ohio and I reject the Virginia medical program oh and by the way I reject the Florida 2016 medical initiative right um because it was issued in a limited license way and I think those 900,000 people that are now registered patients well they’re getting access through a a flawed program and so that’s not to minimize the imperfections that exist in this program but it’s just to say if you’re going to take that position I think you have to take responsibility for the logic consequences of that position yeah I was say I I am that person I feel like that that that’s what that’s the role I feel like I’m playing right now like I have been pointing out and that maybe I don’t mean to make a hard switch to hemp but that’s kind of my foundation and my point against him or my point for him rather is that it’s not that it’s perfect but all those little things I am yes I’m absolutely critical of all of our limited license state of Ohio of you know Arizona um there are more you know um that I’m critical Las Vegas that one sucks um I’m critical of it is it cool that you can do it is it a step in the right direction absolutely I’m not so radical that I’m not going to give the credit where credit is due but I do feel the role I am playing is exactly what you just described maybe like less I try to be a little bit like humble you know try to be like soft about it if you can’t tell but I absolutely like do believe we’ve not gone far enough and that’s again not we can if you have more points on Amendment Three we can but that’s kind of the foundation I’m setting the foundation for why I love hemp because I feel like it’s decimated a lot of these Nanny state regulations that we have whether it be these are the nanny State ones possession limits dosage caps uh purchase limits things like that um or the you know the idea that it is an open market um in Most states where you you know you it’s easy to get a hemp license I asked the Illinois Department of Agriculture hemp regulator and he said Cole if you would have paid me this morning you’d be walking out with one this afternoon and it’s like [ __ ] yeah brother so that again that’s the foundation we can get to it did you have more Point points on three let’s get to hemp maybe the last thing I’ll say right on this amendment three discussion I think there’s a difference between your position which we’ll describe as the yes and position which is yes these initiatives you know are none of them are perfect but they represent a step forward and now more progress needs to be made there’s a difference between that position and the um let’s reject you know let’s let’s reject something that’s imperfect and again I get it right like I think that’s a reasonable position but I do think that means you have to own rejecting almost all the progress we’ve made in cannabis I do think that means you have to own setting up a you know a market that is economically Democratic is more important to me than folks not getting arrested for for for example right like all policy decisions are weighing different criteria and a lot of times the debate is sort of like um well I can criticize this measure without kind of taking responsibility for what the broader implications are there but yeah I think kind of talk this one to death and and um I think your perspective was really really helpful here as as we were just kind of vibing on this so yeah thank you again for coming on dude and do you you know in the spirit of what you just said you know having to balance Licensing in an open market with the complete decriminalization like that again just setting the foundation for him I know that we could actually you could accurately argue that you know there’s like a case in Georgia where a guy was smoking a thca like that kind of that situation I laid out earlier hypothetically that actually happened I don’t know if people remember the viral video but a guy was like smoking a thca joint with his like girlfriend or something cop came over super hostile threw him on the ground and he’s like bro I just bought this from a [ __ ] store and he’s getting violently accosted in this free country of ours and um so look I’m a like I’m acknowledging that again there’s some uh discretion involved and maybe some ignorance about what the law is you know but and I know that this debate about hemp is about interpretation but it’s interesting how like or at least it was about interpretation people used to say like or sorry intent I mean to say people used to say and I actually kind of agree with this like thesis like Mitch McConnell and Donald Trump did not intend to legalize weed at a federal level I am not the person trying to say that that’s that that happened but I think we would both be remiss if we didn’t acknowledge that like Mitch McConnell didn’t sit down and write the [ __ ] 2018 farm bill so I feel like and I had this debate with a lawyer on the show recently I feel like what happened was somebody was in the room and they knew what the Lang me because they are the ones that wrote it not the legislators and they’re like hey if everybody just shuts the [ __ ] up we can do this like because they don’t know what they’re legislating and so the lawyer immediately jumped on me that I had on and said well Cole that’s you admitting that it’s a loophole and I said no that’s me saying that our lawmakers are not reading the legislation they’re the language is clear and 2014 it was the Industrial farm bill it was pretty narrow what you could do with hemp um I meant to say 2018 2014 Industrial Hemp act um in 2018 they dropped that term industrial as you know they added a host of salts and isomers that I don’t know when I read them it’s like I’ve consumed them before so it’s like when people say the intent wasn’t to make consumables it’s like again I think somebody [ __ ] just knew what they were doing and they were slick with the language because cannabis itself doesn’t always produce a high level of Delta 9 THC and you can testing testing is a [ __ ] joke right now it is I mean I’m I’m not I’m just going to say it I’m not going to even like I was going to be like try to be reasonable it’s a [ __ ] joke you know it’s a good start I will again say yes it’s a step in the right direction but it’s a it’s crazy like third party testing in most Industries is laughed at um anyways uh I I so we’ve kind of established my found foundation for him like I don’t I think the debate about intent is besides the fact if they didn’t intend it they’ve had a lot of time to make it clear and they haven’t uh you know what I mean and so uh again my my whole thing is the reason I love it there are problems there are problems with it and I’ll give you the space here because I know I’ve been saying a lot but I want to pitch it over to you by saying that cuz you kind of get where I’m coming from I feel like it’s decimated a lot of the like things that I think are stupid that we have to deal with like I for example at my mini do the other day this so I drink these River Bluff punch pops they got 50 milligrams of THC in them and they actually they sponsored the show too um so they sent a bunch of drinks to the mini do sent a [ __ ] [ __ ] ton of drinks through the mail to this place that I was showing my mini do in and like no dispensary could ever do that for me they also happen to have a cannabis license I will say they have a social Equity cannabis license they’re kind of kind of like you know one of those people that do it’s becoming more of a usual thing now you know with big players jumping in and such uh doing both cannabis and hemp but anyways you get my point that it just kind of like it it feels like it’s treated more like alcohol pimp is more like alcohol than marijuana is as you as we started with using those terms um so we’ve established that it it seems like it addresses the criminalization issue minus people not understanding the law which is a big [ __ ] problem I’m not we can’t just gloss over that and the last thing I’ll say is it doesn’t and this is the point that you kind of LED with that we segue to you don’t even have to make that compromise of because it’s just [ __ ] treated like a commodity you just get a license and that’s why I love it and I don’t understand I’m not saying it couldn’t be better I’m not saying we we let’s subject it to Cannabis Testing uh state testing if you want to do that but like to just shut it down is shooting ourselves in the foot in my opinion what say you yeah totally I mean I I agree with so much of what you said there um and I’m gonna address each of those points I think individually I think before I do that just as a high level and I think this is applicable to our entire conversation here right I what I’ve noticed is I think the political divisions in the Cannabis industry in a lot of ways mirror the divisions in the United States at large right and I just I just want to talk about that for a second what what concerns me about the Cannabis industry just like this country is that we are dividing ourselves into smaller and smaller tribes right at the encouragement of the most strident voices within those tribes right and those tribes claim that their tribe represents everything that is true and that is just and everyone who is outside of that tribe right kind of um is is a scoundrel and is kind of ignoring the shared values that we all have I think almost all of us or all of us in this hemp cannabis marijuana space believe in plant medicine got into this because we saw an overbearing criminal justice system and we wanted to to write that and so even though we’re engaged in this like kind of Civil War conflict we have a ton in common and um again I see that happening in in the country at large right I mean I know in this country we think we’re so divided but as someone who has probably spent more time in the third world and in the rest of the world than a lot of Americans I promise you we have so much in common right like we have more in common than we know and if you go to the rest of the world and see how other people live and what their value are you will recognize how much we have in common in this country and that’s why it’s so disheartening to see these divisions take shape and the same is true in the context of hemp cannabis and and marijuana and I’ll just say just like in this country when we fight right I know we have it feels like a SC up that’s all I’m sorry it just really feels like a scop because it’s so arbitrary I I think that’s the perfect term for it right and in the same way that in this country our division is being cheered on by other actors in the world like China and Russia and Iran could not be more happy that we continue to fight one another the same thing is true in this space right that we continue to fight one another and other economic interests could not be happier right or like you know prohibitionist politicians right are so happy that we’re so divided right and and that we can’t coales our efforts and so I guess that would be the meta comment I would make right suppose you’re listening to this and suppose like you didn’t agree with some of the things I said on Amendment Three like that’s fine that’s the purpose of this conversation and I think that for the most part you know we have to assume some level of good faith unless it’s proven otherwise and what I know to be true is if we um identify these other people in our little niche as our biggest enemies we are missing the forest for the trees here and it will only be to our own detriment and so that was part of the reason I wanted to come on and have this conversation because the the discourse you see on social media and otherwise again I think encourages the most strident voices right in these tribes and I I think that’s that’s that’s really problematic and a lot of those folks like they have an economic interest in division in the same way that a lot of politicians in this country have an electoral interest in dividing this country so do right the people that say the most insane things right um um on the internet so that’s a meta comment um another comment I’ll make is about this idea of like a loophole or not it’s it’s it’s strange that this has captured so much of the debate I think the simplest way I can put it is like look the plane language right and I I as we’ll discussed before like I have some concerns about the way that hemp is developed in this country but it seems to me that the language of the farm bill as written right is pretty clear now you can make the argument that the authors or the people you know in cahoots with the authors did not intend these things but those are kind of two separate arguments right like one is a literal like method of legal interpretation in which you focus on literal meanings that are in the text and the other focuses on legislative intent and so I think this debate about a loophole just kind of is there are two different ways right to read statutes and you know especially you know in our current Judiciary the literal interpretation tends to take precedence so we could continue arguing back and forth about a loophole but I think the simplest way to put it is like yeah this is evolved in ways that a lot of the people passing the bill didn’t intend at the same time the language of the bill is really pretty clear right even if you disagree with it and that’s generally how we interpret laws so that’s the the comment on that um a couple more comments I’ll make um and then I’ll I’ll pause in a second I think regardless of where we come to this from like protecting Public Health should be our number one priority and I guess a different way of putting this is we should all be capable of admitting that sometimes our economic self-interest no matter how we’re situated here doesn’t line up with public health a lot of times people conflate the positions they’re like oh this is the right thing to do but it also is conveniently the thing that is in my economic interest like we should be adult enough to say x is in my economic interest like I’m willing to surface the fact that there are some conflicting economic interests here and then separate from that is the public health and public policy kind of question here um what what I’m kind of thinking about here is you know that famous quote from Upton Sinclair the author that wrote on the jungle um you know he famously said um what is it it is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on him not understanding it right that famous quote and I think that’s really applicable in the context of cannabis so we should surface the fact that we are all blinded by our economic interests here and we need to be honest about the fact that fact as we engage in this conversation um and then as it comes to the public health debate look like I’m not a chemist right I think you’ve had people on this show before and you probably more than I can speak intelligently about synthetic canabo and their risks right I try my best to listen to Scientific voices in this process but I got like a c in high school chemistry right like I’m not the guy who’s going to be able to draw the line about where things are safe right that’s not me I’m trying to do my best to educate myself on these really new like cannaboids and processes I’m not that guy so I can’t claim to speak with any Authority here all I can say is at least based on my semi-educated understanding in this unregulated state of the hemp Market there are products out there right that seem unsafe and not properly regulated again I’m not the person who can opine on you know what the right synthetic process is and what is safe and what isn’t but I think that you know the world in which we’re living in is that there are easily available products that could damage public health and obviously there’s tons of good actors in The Hemp space but there are Bad actors in The Hemp space too and I think as we try to move forward and again I’m not saying I have the solution but as we try to move forward we should you know remind ourselves of the fact that not only is protecting Public Health our moral obligation but the best way we unravel this plant medicine movement the way that we generate opposition to it is by by having those concerns manifest themselves so we if we care about this progression we have to be very thoughtful about how we move things forward just to use a kind of a crude analogy California was one of the first states to really embrace the Criminal Justice Reform movement something that I support deeply again right like I’ve been doing criminal justice Works since I was 17 I worked for Charles ogl Tre the first person to advance a reparations claim through the United States core system like I’m down for the Cause right but the way in which we’ve implemented it in California has drawn a lot of backlash right because it’s been implemented very poorly and that’s why this November there’s going to be an initiative prop 36 that reinstituted forward and know that we’re dealing with the fickle public that is totally prepared to put us back in Pandora’s box right um if we don’t act appropriately but to your point what you just said Cole is like it’s hard for the Cannabis bace to speak with the moral Authority that I just spoke with when in our own testing regimes we are allowing faulty product into the system right like I’m from the state of California there has been a lot of literature on our testing system and on the fact that the safe tested and legal product allegedly coming through our licensed operators in many cases is not that so that’s a way of saying like the Cannabis Community needs to get its own house in order right before we will have moral authority to identify other products as potentially unsafe yeah same just really quick same with Illinois and I’ll link for listeners and investig uh podcast I did with the Chicago Sun Times they’ll tell you about an investigation they did into Illinois Cannabis Testing and the reason I just wanted to make this point is because we’re widely hailed as the most strict Cannabis Testing regime in the state of Illinois and uh if you look at the results of the Chicago Sun Times found um just check them out um and if I wanted to give you more space um it sound like you’re about to segue so yeah I mean I’ll I’ll say maybe a few more things and then and obviously rub me anytime um again you know again like I’m not the guy to identify where that line is drawn which processes are okay that’s for smarter scientific people to opine on but I guess just the larger meta comment is we have to be very thoughtful about public health and we jeopardize this movement right by by by um by jeopardizing Public Health whether it’s on the Cannabis or the hemp side and then maybe my other kind of Quasi political comment right is like you were saying Cole hey like Banning things is not is not the right way forward right that’s not going to work um what I what I would say is this and I’ll I’ll give you an analogy from from my um my prior career history right what I’ll say is you know the hemp industry’s strategy of trying to like delay revisions to the farm bill whether you agree with it or not it is tactically sound now what I kind of mean by that is like and look I’m kind of a skeptic there’s some people who think that in the lame duck session the farm bill is going to be revised and and the loophole you know quote unquote will will be closed right um I’m a little skeptical of that just given just Federal in in transigence but I guess what I’m saying is you know when I was working at Airbnb right we knew that if we could delay regulation right longer if we could get more consumers right to opt into the system if more tax revenue was generated as a result of this right if more businesses were dependent upon this new economy that was still illegal right we knew that um we would become embedded in the social Fabric and it would be really difficult right for the government to get rid of us and so again agree or disagree with the quote unquote hemp Lobby I think it is a tactically and strategically sound move and I think this is intentional to the late I was about to say you probably have I was about to bring out the fact literally that you you mentioned you were in Airbnb and I was like that’s kind of an you know people call hemp an industry disruptor like Airbnb for hotels you know totally I mean it’s it’s I feel like I’m living the same experience right you have the more established incumbent actor right which is which is the hotels but kind of this Renegade startup by virtue of having lower regular atory burdens is able to Avail itself of all of this wealth and compete with this more established incumbent actor right um so it’s it’s a it’s a perfect analogy and I think it cuts both ways right so in the same way like when I negotiated the first tax agreement for Airbnb in LA right I knew that within a year we would be generating 50 60 70 million in Airbnb taxes for the city of Los Angeles and that would Forstall the efforts to try and ban Airbnb and that yes there were bad actors there but that would give sort of and I think this is the way the hemp industry should be looking at it that would give the hemp industry the the ammo and then the self-awareness to weed out the Bad actors and to establish a place like within this like newly regulated economy to go from an unregulated to a regulated economy to get rid of the people that were you know using airbnbs to do sort of like shady or unsafe things but to retain like kind of its benefits as you were articulating so I think that that’s that analogy holds true but the other piece of that I will highlight is um you know again going back to aab BNB in some instances we took it too far and should have been thoughtful about self-regulation now what I mean by that is you know there’s long been a law called the communications decency act right um or or known as the CDA now section 230 of the CDA right basically and this is a law passed in the late 90s when Bill Clinton was President immunizes internet platforms for illegal activity that is done by Third parties on those platforms it was basically a way of facilitating the growth of the internet in the late 90 s where they said hey dude like if you got a website and like someone else uses that website to do illegal stuff like it’s not on you you just create that platform and so that’s what Airbnb and Facebook and all of these other internet platforms that’s what they adhered to for many years they’re like hey dude like if you’re going to try and pass this Airbnb regulation we’re going to sue you right in court and we will invalidate those laws based on the communications decency act which prohibits internet platforms from being liable for that illicit activity now that worked for a while but then at a certain point the public policy interest in policing illicit activity on these platforms led to a a evolved form of judicial interpretation and you know um I will say it would have been more prudent you know although Airbnb was trying to defend its business at some point to acknowledge that this you know in the same way that the farm bill is being used as an ironclad defense against regulation at some point that’s going to run out right at some point the public especially if if negative safety incidents occur and so I think the smart thing and I think this is true both in Florida and across the country the smart thing for good hemp operators to do is to recognize that they may adopt a strategy of delay in order to Forstall regulation right and that they probably will be able to do that given how dysfunctional our political culture is and again whether you agree or disagree with them they’ll be able to amass more economic might to fight that battle but that the idea of you know kind of keeping regulation at an arms length forever is ultimately not in the interest of those hemp operators and to give you a really specific example although Airbnb is now a really successful company Airbnb is now banned in New York you cannot go to the city of New York you can’t go to New York City and hardly get a single Airbnb today despite the fact that it was a thriving business for six or seven years because you know they they [ __ ] around a little bit too long and then they found out right and and I I would bet that um a couple of years ago if they pivoted a little bit and again it’s been seven years since I I worked there so I I can’t sort of you know pretend to be involved in the day-to-day I I I guess the point is there was a moment at which self-regulation was required there needed to be some introspection about good actors and Bad actors that and making that distinction and again we could spend hours debating where that line is drawn and as I just mentioned I’m not I’m not smart enough to draw that line for you I just don’t understand chemistry enough but I do know if this industry if these industries are going to coexist and survive in the way that hotels and airb now to some extent do coexist and survive um there’s going to have to be some policing of that activity and you cannot hide behind um you know a legal defense uh for for too long and so yeah there’s more I could say I think there’s all these interesting subcategories like beverages for example I think are really interesting but that’s sort of a metap policy Point yeah I so obviously some of these products would be hard to do because there is this interstate commerce idea but like I don’t know I just like I feel like the issue is simple if you can pass a state test you can sell your product on the market and like one of the things you said is like I actually know a good number of including these people that I’m drinking a drink of River Bluff Collective they are sponsoring uh legislation I don’t know I’m not going to speak or endorse the legislation that they’re maybe pushing this session um I will just say that in the past when we’ve talked they generally share the principles of yes we’ll label our product accurately yes we’ll test it to the same standards is your Cannabis Testing regime wherever it is we’re talking Illinois right I’ve seen other similar proposals as the point it’s this like three-pillar approach of testing labeling and ageg gating and that’s it like that solves the problem so I I do agree with you that there is probably a lot of those people I like just there’s so much truth in what you’re saying I can feel it like CU you’re talking about your lived experience in Airbnb so obviously there are people that stand to benefit that are selling these uh doidos and I saw Fritos and um you like these Starburst knockoffs like these people would not survive under a a regulatory regime that but let’s I guess what I’m saying is Illinois has a hemp licensing program Florida has a hemp licensing program and I’m curious just just cuz you know a lot about this and I never see people talk about this like I always see people talk about desantis’s uh veto I read his veto uh once and I tried I tried talking about this with the dankin former and I’m just curious like what your take is okay I want to acknowledge he’s probably speaking out of both sides of his mouth but I didn’t know that he passed a bill he says to um what did he say you can’t sell it to people under 21 it prohibits the Sailor distribution of products found to be mislabeled or attractive to children so I guess my question is if they have these laws and let’s just put aside the fact that he might not be he might be let’s just say he’s disingenuous because he is um doesn’t this fall on like the State of Florida or in the case of Illinois because people call them unlicensed operators and that they’re not regulated it’s like no often times these people have hemp licenses they’re ulations are just different you know what I mean and so I guess that’s my question like can you like what’s your take on that idea CU like I feel like sometimes that’s like a you know a talking point like I again I think there are unlicensed operators it’s those examples with the clear knockoff products because they wouldn’t survive with a license because they’d be liable to a lawsuit through that legal system whatever it is so they’re never going to survive but a lot of times these people do have licenses and they are regulated they’re just regulated differently you know totally I mean here’s what I would say first you know again just going back to Airbnb and we’re talking about Florida I think we’re likely to see a very State specific system emerge right so in the same way that you know Arizona and Florida you know those two states for example they’re really big on tourism they’re really big on vacation rentals and so they have state Frameworks that make it really hard for cities to interfere with the rights of people right to to host short-term r very different from other states that don’t have the same econom interest in like s promoting places that don’t like allow Uber like they only allow taxis I think those are few and far between these days um I’m sorry I was going to try to give you another example but anyways no no totally I mean I don’t know I’ve um I think there might be some places that that that ban Uber but in in most places those those seem available cuz that’s another analogy that I’ve heard is you know taxi medallions versus Uber you know I never thought about Airbnb and hotels like that’s another great example to think about but yeah there’s a lot of analoges here right um all of these things for sure um and then you know on your on your question right pulling up that veto message I can’t pretend to be an expert in like how hemp is regulated in Florida to your point I think there’s some level of Regulation I think there are some critics that would say you know um hemp is not fully or properly regulated in Florida um that’s what I believe to be true but I can’t you know um I guess I can’t opine you know I don’t know with specificity what all of those regulations look like but I will say as a practical matter right and you were just pulling up that veto message and I remember reading it a few months ago I haven’t read it since but what I remember from that message is that later in the letter he says okay in 2025 like I want the legislature to come back right and to pass a law that focuses on X Y and Z right and I think that’s that’s the important thing to consider I mean going back to Florida for example if I were a hemp operator in Florida that were doing things the right way I would recognize and I think this is true for Florida but also is applicable across the country right like I would recognize that Ronda santis might be my friend in 2024 and Ron but Ronda santis might be trying to clamp down on me in 2025 and so tactically right the best way to ensure my survival right is to sort of um opt into a set of regulatory standards that makes clear that I’m a good actor and Ally with the AB industry within that framework put differently right um I think uh like it would be a mistake for a lot of these hemp operators to continue to fight the the Cannabis industry because I think six months from now they’re going to be standing on more of an island when they have to contend with a force like Ronda santis so I realize that’s not a substantive answer to your question of like what is the state of Regulation what might it be yeah I guess as a tactical point I go back to this idea that like again in the same way that if you were a really good Airbnb host in the year like 2017 and you were making a ton of money in the semi-regulated world but because it was semi-regulated you were making a ton of money and you were doing all the things the right way I think it is in your interest in ensuring the survival of your business to identify what those set of best practices are and to advocate for a legal framework that allows that to stand alongside hotels rather than you know living in a world in which airbnbs are are banned entirely so let me know if that kind of gets at your question but that’s my it does because like honestly what you had pointed out I’m reading it right now that’s again acknowledging that he’s talking out of both sides of his mouth that seems to be what he’s setting out he’s saying I hey I set these standards back in the day coming forward these should be the standards and it’s actually kind of what I just said uh though I disagree with some of them he [ __ ] pretty sure he I thought I saw like yeah like a dosing cap I don’t know maybe I’m wrong and getting too caught up on Words again I just I think adult can figure out what you know we do it with alcohol why can’t we figure it out with cannabis we’ll figure out which doses we want um and you know companies will figure out which doses sell let it work itself out um anyways uh ret so he says quality control labeling marketing and packaging retail sales but he says you know that’s what he wants in the future but in the meantime I encourage the Florida Department of Agriculture and consumer services to continue using its full existing authority to root out products that violate Florida law which is whatever he said up here which is just that it can’t be sold to under 21 it can’t be mislabeled or attractive to children all processing facilities have to meet food safety and sanitation standards and provide actually it there it is provides a potency cap son of a [ __ ] um I don’t know what it is but the fact that there is one at all I’m just I get caught up in those small details anyways um we’ll move on from that my idea is even if he’s out of both sides of his mouth he put it in paper that I encourage this department to use their full Authority I don’t know what their full Authority is maybe you don’t either and I think you actually said that so maybe this is a moot point we’re talking about but again my my real point and I actually hear your point um like look there are issues like you just said with all these analoges like uber Airbnb um lift you know any uh pet the pet we I was just talking to my friends the other day they do like pet walking and they like love animals and you know make sure to walk people’s pets and they like they’re trying to do a sustainable business other meanwhile these people are just like gig workers they just get like an app and they’re like I’ll [ __ ] walk your dog so there’s problems with all these little like gig economy things and flexibilities that pop up these Market disruptors they def that’s I think a string that we see through all of these things and like you say I just hope that people like the example I’ve been using here where they do have 21 plus they’ve got it do dosed you know it says it’s tested I can look at the COA um you know they’re trying to play by the rules like I feel like these people are they like you say they should come to the table come up with a reasonable set of Standards hopefully they don’t touch on my little triggers with potency caps and uh you know come to the table and just agree to operate on one set of rules CU and it seems like the reasonable ones do so I don’t know I don’t know man um I hope to see it that’s what I hope to see in the future is like okay so it’s interesting because in Illinois um I’ve re I’ve recently released articles you know not many people are talking about this and it’s it’s fine it’s not that crazy of a story but GTI and Grace and wellness are two companies in Illinois that have been granted the exclusive ability to grow hemp and they only use it for extraction purposes right so in Edibles and Vapes and I won’t name which of the two cultivators uh but one of the two has claimed that 40% of their products in Illinois come from this outdo outdoor hemp you know section so it’s like if it can be sold in Illinois and it can pass these standards like again it kind of go back to my original point I just wish we could just it seems like a simple issue we’ve got these testing services set up and we actually agreed they’re flawed but it’s like hey it’s a start like that’s what I said earlier it’s a start so why not just let them [ __ ] if they can’t pass the test they can’t sell the product you know what I mean yeah for sure I mean that that all resonates and but I think to your point maybe it’s in a maybe I’m being too optimistic or you know yeah I mean you know one thing I want to pull on is that like you said Cole like two sets of rules or play by the same sets of rules or the term fairness is thrown out a lot I think that’s worth unpacking right like how do we evaluate that fairness argument in this like hemp cannabis war look like is it unfair that like you know cannabis operators are subject to 28 and have all can’t do interstate commerce like and operators can yeah I mean it’s hard to dispute that it’s unfair I mean is it unfair that cannabis has on some level given cover to hemp right that we accept temp in part because of the normalization that these license operators have have have facilitated yeah I think that’s reasonable but I think a second question worth asking is like do we care about fairness that much and what I mean by that is like there’s fairness when it comes to the perspective entrepreneurs but there are also other interests right like how do we weigh that against the interests of consumers and again I’m not answering that question I’m just posing it as a question there is a world in which hemp is playing by a set of rules that is unfair but someone could still argue and again I realize this is debatable but I’m just trying to like disentangle these arguments in the various constituencies here right like that evaluates things through the lens of an entrepreneur right and it’s perfectly possible that something might have been unfair to the Cannabis entrepreneurs that are Trailblazers but might be in the interest of consumers now someone would respond to me and say no hemp products are all terrible and they’re unsafe they’re bad for consumers but my point is that we kind of in the same way that we conflate our economic self-interest and public health we we turn we we throw out this term fairness without recognizing that is kind of an entrepreneur Centric term and that’s just one constituency as we were talking about with Florida there’s the perspective of the business operators there’s the perspective of consumers there’s the perspective of citizens that might get arrested and so we tend to conflate all all of these issues and I think that the the term like there needs to be one set of rules like I get that I think that is true but we also need to think about consumers here um and then I’ll also say on when it comes to one set of rules like again that makes sense to me right but I think when it becomes problematic is when that par involves fitting hemp into broken regulatory systems right and I think there’s no better example of that than California like California is a totally broken cannabis market right as measured by you know per capita sales and anything else and there was recently governed nome’s like executive order right or emergency regulations kind of like banning all hemp and you know you know on the one hand I’m sure there’s some people I’m sure there are some really dangerous hemp products out there that will have been removed as a result of that order I’m sure there are also a bunch of great products that will be removed as a result of that I think Adam Terry from cantrip is probably you know one of the great examples of an operator who is doing things the right way who has been caught up in that broad measure right so but setting that aside I think it becomes problematic like if fairness requires us to fit hemp into these broken regulatory schemes that will lead us nowhere right the solution in California the way to obtain fairness is by lowering the burden right on cannabis operators by lowering the taxes and all of these insane regulations not trying to fit hemp into a broken regulatory that seems like what that is like almost like I almost feel like cannabis needs to step a little bit to the middle and and back off with the like the oligopolistic Tendencies and hemp needs to step in a little bit in the middle and to your point the the testing systems are perfect we’ve acknowledged that but it’s like a step in the right direction you know what I mean and then yeah we improve totally totally yeah no I I agree with that but to also to your point because you made a few other points a step in the right dire they step towards us I don’t mean to even say us like I’m a hemper but I you know I really like I you you get my point on it if you step that direction you get the freedom from 280e you get the freedom to ship your product interstate so it’s like you stand benefit from like this is the way I wanted to pitch it to you like I feel like anybody I didn’t even say it to you because again I did the same thing with uh the danken former and I asked this this is really actually like when it comes to Brass taxs what really intrigued me about him if you scroll all the way to the bottom of the 2018 farm bill and you just look at the language and you know there’s all this talk about rescheduling right now like this is what it looks like to deschedule something we did it in 2018 and we don’t disagree on that but I’m just the what what I’m trying to say is because I know legalization adult use happened in California in 2016 and it’s basically been legal since 1996 in California but I feel like if we would have been given this option in 2005 I mean we would not be having this discussion we’re having right now like and it’s not that we’re having it but like the the broader like at each other’s throats I think what the discussion would be if this happened in 20 5 would be like hey people aren’t always labeling this accurately so like let’s not [ __ ] put the cat back in the bag we legalize weed let’s [ __ ] make sure they label it properly like I hate that’s that’s what I really hate when people talk about changing the farm bill at all it’s like this is a whatever you want to call it it’s it’s just a [ __ ] win and you got to take it when you get it just like Amendment Three would be like you got to recognize little wins when you might be able to get them you know you know what I mean and I just wish I wish we would look I’m not talking about we on this call but like we is the collective cannabis Community because I really do in some ways in a high conspiratorial way I feel like somebody like knew what they were doing when they wrote in hemp and they’re like this is going to piss a lot of [ __ ] people off because it’s just arbitrary split I mean this is what they did they descheduled it just using some they made up some random term called hemp you know which I think we both would agree in the past when people were referring to him it’s that long fibrous plant but that’s they knew what they were doing you know and I just wish we’d take the win for what it is and try to improve it for for what it needs for what it needs right you know instead of and I don’t think that’s what you’re proposing here today but it does seem like and I’m not trying to feed into that US versus them mentality but it is unfortunate on like a lot of the Cannabis investor like talk that I’ve involved myself in I in invest in a lot of these companies by the way not a lot of money because I’m not a rich person but you know these stocks aren’t very expensive I might buy just a few here or there and hey maybe I’ll make a buck or two I don’t know um so that’s what I’d done a few years ago anyways though I just what do you think about that like why can’t we just take the win for what it’s worth I mean I I would say progress on drug PO on drug policy reform has always been incremental like that’s what drug policy reform is it is taking whenn right I mean let us let us just think about this in a broader context governments do not have an interest in making mind expanding like plant medicine compounds available right and a lot of the stigma that exists is a result of deeply entrenched economic interests so we’re fighting an uphill battle and all progress is by definition incremental I take your point that you know in 2005 we could have done something differently and we wouldn’t be here but we are where we are today right and so the question is how do we move forward together and it seems clear to me that the way that we kind of like move forward together um is well the way that we you know the internal kind of civil war that exists is not going to lead us to that to that desired outcome and so I mean I I guess I would I would focus on like what are the things that this conflict has taught us right and we’ve surfaced some of these already but maybe another thing I’ll surface is that this this conflict or hemp has taught us right that cannabis will never reach its full potential um when it is only made available in restrictive sales channels like you were talking earlier like hemp is super easy to get I can buy it anywhere I can buy it online right and look on the one hand that is incredibly frustrating for cannabis operators because they can’t Avail themselves of those tools but what what we know right the reason why people go into these Total Wines and you know they buy beverages is that we know that people like not everyone is going to smoke weed the way you and I do right like they are looking for cannabis in normal distribution channels they find the idea of going into a dispensary very intimidating because it’s a weird experience they want to consume cannabis and form factors that are are familiar to them and so yes we are living in the state of this conflict but one of the lessons that I think the Cannabis industry has learned is that the restrictive sales model which maybe was a necessity right the way that we had of combating this deep stigma against cannabis is sort of you know even against our better intellectual judgment was to treat it like it was plutonium is to engage in this I think Adam Terry a previous guest of yours said that this was a fan bargain and I think that was a putting it right like we engaged in that bargain that’s what we needed right in order to overcome that stigma we now see the limitations of that framework and so the question is right how can we adopt at least some of the lessons that hemp has taught us about how to move plant medicine forward while acknowledging some of the regulatory limitations that could present bad outcomes right in the same way that like I decided to work at Airbnb because you know I’m a little older than you Cole but like when I first got some money to travel like I couldn’t afford to stay in hotels but I could stay in airbnbs and I was like this is awes awesome like I can do this everywhere I want to work for this company I want to push policy forward so I was stoked on it but when I was there I realized that even though 99.9% of use cases were legit for Airbnb there was real harm that could be caused by a lack of Regulation and so similarly I think it’s important that folks you know like that really believe in hemp to have and I think you know most are already there but the conflict kind of obscures this common ground to have that come to Jesus moment where you’re like okay this is a new cool thing that we developed now how do we build the right guard rails around this to make it politically defensible and ensure that it remains an option in the future in the same way that airbnbs are an option as an alternative uh to hotels so I know I keep returning to that analogy but appropriate I think the point that I hadn’t been able to verbalize up until you just said that was that I’ve been trying to verbalize and I can like put it more succinctly now is that I just hate that there’s so like you said there are people on the let’s call it Airbnb side of this debate that don’t that aren’t going to welcome more regulation because they they’re better with without it and then it’s just unfortunate there are people on the side of the debate of quote unquote regulation that also I feel like are making arguments in bad faith like i’ I’ve specifically seen people like back off of like just hemp derived can aboid in general like uh like you know there’s still this idea of like uh you want to get it naturally derived instead of synthetically derived but like um Delta 8 for example you know the University of Illinois first identified and synthesized Delta 8 in like 1942 I’m not going to sit here and say it’s well researched but I I do I am under the impression that it’s like not as dangerous as everybody was making it out to be in fact the first place I ever tried Delta 8 was in an Illinois dispensary like I’ve got a biot TR label and everything it was tested by the state I’m not trying to stand up for Delta 8 or anything I again I’m trying to make the point to keep it SU think like a kind of short it’s unfortunate that the people that are on the side I think they are like joining the reasonable side they’re like amongst the reasonable side or posing as the reasonable side making bad faith arguments do you understand what I’m trying to say about some of the like and now that it’s interesting how the goal posts have shifted it’s like okay cbn’s okay you know CBD CBG that stuff’s cool to have uh in you know these products now um but you know Skip back a few months ago like all of those types of canabo like the you call it what do people call it like a alphabet soup or something like that it’s like they’re all canabo I remember the first time I went into a dispensary saw all the canabo I was like this is great and then for like a little period there when hemp got popular certain canabo were being demonized it’s like nah if they’re tested and regulated I think if they can pass those State regulated tests then they’re probably okay to your point though you made earlier sorry I promise to be short but I think you made a really good point earlier that Adam Terry made um he’s more of a chemist than both of us and there are some of these Downstream chemical processes that can happen for certain like synthetic cannaboids I’m not going to sit here and try to defend all synthetic canabo I do think treating any substance like you got to be really careful with drug policy just that like zoom out from this little Civil War like we should be very hesitant to treat I think any drug like a controlled substance because that act has [ __ ] us for years now as a society I’m not saying no regulation but don’t schedule substances you know what I mean like figure out a way to regulate them sorry though I went on longer than I meant to no thanks for that I mean I’ll just make a few points one you know just on the chemistry piece of this I’ll just say again that’s where it becomes harder for me to opine right you were talking about the safety synthetic cannaboids where I kind of get lost in this debate where there needs to be people smarter than me right is kind of like articulating that kind of what what is is safe and I I try to educate myself on these things but it’s hard for me to say well that synthesized process is okay and and and and and but do you take my point because I also got lost in it like the fact that people I’m not saying you do but people that don’t know what the hell they’re talking about will demonize like like I’ll just the dankin forer like is constantly talking about like the I’m not saying he’s wrong on any certain points he said he’s actually had an anecdotal experience of like actually suffering he says I’m not disputing his personal experience I’m just saying he’s not a chemist either you know so like maybe people that don’t know the chemistry I’m not saying you can’t research and figure things out too but do you take my point I’m not I wasn’t actually referring to him but he pops up in my Twitter feed a lot it’s kind of like a lot of different people that don’t know the chemistry and are opining anyways and then you and I will be like hey I don’t know and I we even try to point people that do know that tell us like that doesn’t sound like a good idea so maybe we should just [ __ ] stay away from that you know maybe we should stick to Natural like Adam Terry says it’s yeah exactly I mean it’s it’s really hard to evaluate all these claims and I guess I’ll just you know and and and you know again I it’s hard for me to opine one way or another on on people’s claims I guess just the very basic and unhelpful thing I’m going to say is like I want people to be safe right and that has to be the ground zero for all of our policy um but but that’s a larger scientific debate that that is probably subject for another podcast but you get like a when people you I hate it when sorry to cut you off but like Governor Nome says it’s like safety and for the children he’s like I went in an alcohol store and I could buy these it’s like dude we see when you go into Total Wine it’s like there should be and I know we’re not disagreeing I just hate when people use Public Safety that’s like another example of like he’s a pro cannabis person he’s signed cannab but he’s making a bad faith argument about as if these products are maybe were some of the products he got that were like clearly copyright infringement bad but like yeah he had Adam Terry’s products up there it’s like bro you have those are they’ve got Child Safe Lids on like get the hell out of there with that bad faith argument totally I mean I think we have to be able to identify when people are being disingenous that’s a better example than Dan for yeah yeah I mean I think he’s an example of someone who is being um disingenuous under the guise of Public Health I mean if we’re talking about Nome let’s just be clear here what is Gavin Newsome’s interest right um in California we have a really high cannabis tax structure right and those you know this is unique in that this cannabis tax revenue goes towards specific nonprofits in California that long have had political Cloud right so it just so happens right that this cannabis program funds um different nonprofits it’s sometimes hard to tell how they spend that money funds different nonprofits that are allied with the Democratic party in California so quite frankly cannabis tax revenue in California is a slush fund for Gavin usum to you know pay off his political allies that prop Pates the interest of the democratic party right and that cannabis tax revenue continues to decline right because we have such a broken regulatory system and hemp is seen as the one responsible and again I’m just going to go back to like Airbnb for example in San Francisco right as you probably know right in the you know in the 2010s rent started to increase precipitously for a variety of reasons it as it did around the country and um Airbnb was a very convenient scapegoat for politicians right who said that it was contributing to to the in these rents and so a lot of times um politicians look to grandstand on particular issues and so it’s it’s hard to take his action seriously and I think it was motivated by a desire right um to to protect the tax revenue going to his his favored constituencies so yeah yeah that’s just kind of my comment on him and I and I think what’s interesting about what he brought up is it sort of brings beverage right in into the equation right and and there’s all of these different types of hemp products what I thought thought was so interesting about what he said or hilarious right is even if you’re skeptical of hemp products right inhalable hemp products I think like the form factor of these different products that is most compelling that has the clearest value proposition is beverage right we’ve seen that adoption because it’s such a familiar form factor we know intuitively that it’s it acts as a substitute for alcohol and Adam Terry’s Point without the scale that hemp has kind of back to one of my foundational points without the scale that hemp allows for there would not be this cuz there just wasn’t a big enough like competitive enough market for people to like develop these drinks R&D you know paps isn’t it you know anyway sorry no I think you’re totally right about that right um and as is well known the the beverage product does not is is not fit for the dispensary sales channel right beverages in this really we were talking about the limitation I didn’t think about that that’s kind of interesting yeah you don’t usually chill products at a dispo totally dude fridges are super expensive and and are huge and and and they take a ton of space right and um that’s why you know what what hemp and this goes back to what I was saying before what hemp has taught us is that yes in fact there is a desire for cannabis beverage products that um you know are a form factor that is familiar to people I think every human being that has ever existed like some beverage of some kind right um which is not what we would say about smoking and so what is unique about beverage is that it’s a substitute for alcohol and look I I enjoy a glass of wine too but that’s like the most you know one of the most destructive drugs out there right um and so I think it both makes a mockery and look I think beverage products should be well regulated to be clear right but it makes a mockery of his claims about public health when we know kind of in practice the Practical impact of a beverage product a hemp beverage product being in a Total Wine in California is that people are probably going to drink less right which which reduces all of the downstream consequences of it so on the new something specifically it’s disingenuous because this primary interest is an economic or a political one but it’s being made under the guise of Public Health and it’s I think particularly silly um to do that for beverages given that at least in my opinion there’s the clearest Public Health justification for it and then just a couple other points on on beverage right to your point I don’t think beverage sales are taking away from dispensary sales like I can imagine a cannabis operator being pissed about like these inhalable hemp Vapes and so people aren’t coming to my shop right I can HCA flower you know correct that’s the best example right but these beverage products seem to serve like a a different demographic and if anything this has been said by many people before they help build a comfort with THC right with canabo that could induce more consumers down the road so I think you know beverage products like that the sort of Zero Sum um economic competition logic does not apply um in the same way with Beverages and again just just saying again they are the clearest illustration that familiar form factors and regular sales channels are the way to achieve our goal like I want to turn everyone in this this country onto plant medicine and that has to be part of the way that we get there and then finally as a practical matter right just going back to what I was saying before about the farm bill agree or disagree the strategy of delay is a good one I’ve seen it happen before and eventually you’re going to have to cut a deal and separate the good actors from The Bad actors right um similarly you know hemp beverages will have a very natural political Ally in the alcohol industry which has you know an exponential amount of political more political power than the Cannabis industry and so as a practical matter even if for some reason you hated these beverages which not many people seem to like we have to recognize that you know in Minnesota 20% of breweries are involved in the hemp Cate hemp beverage category in some way and so the idea as Nome suggested that these products can just be banned and eliminated like that it just flies in the face of all practical reality um and is not going you know that just perpetuates I think kind of the the infighting right um that that is not in our long-term interest so yeah to your point uh Illinois there’s a lot of uh the the craft Brewer Association the president I believe or maybe he’s the executive director I can’t remember came on the show and he um they lobbied against the hemp ban in Illinois um and ultimately ended up becoming a proponent of a bill that a lot of people were refer still referring to as a hemp ban and I agreed to them with them because it would have basically said yes you can sell hemp but only if you’re licensed under the Cannabis act and what other people were proposing like I said earlier were like we can sell hemp but we’ll do your tests and they were like nah we’re not doing that but one I I think one of the best takes that I’ve seen one of my favorite uh uh cannabis daily shows that I watch every once in a while The Dales report uh Anthony verl had a really good I hope I’m saying his last name right he had a really good take on this like if you would have asked me I can’t remember how many years ago he said but if beverages would take off I’d be like nah and I dude I totally agree with them that’s such a good take and now I love them I think he drinks them all the time too and uh it’s interesting cuz yeah I never would have thought I’d be drinking cannabis and it’s honestly gotten me to the point where like I don’t smoke as much cuz and I feel like that’s better you know um notice my sense of smell has gotten stronger as I I’m you know I’ve been blazing up uh today but when I don’t smoke and just drink these like my sense of smell gets better I can because I haven’t been smoking I’ve figured out that cuz like the particulate gets kind of in your nose or whatever um so anyway it’s not uh I just wanted to give a shout out to a good cannabis show and a good take on the subject so totally and just on that first of all d report is a great show um I think it’s super informative they recently were in DC doing yeah that was awesome awesome they’re they’re they’re um they’re really doing something unique in in the space and that is valuable to the community so totally agree there I agree with your sentiment and anony sent sentiment on beverages I think we looked at beverages through our lens right like if we bu cannabis consumers historically we like dude why would I want to drink a beverage but you you come to realize that not everyone is like us right the vast majority of people are not like us and beverages I almost feel silly for never thinking of it cuz now when I the the thing I think we missed earlier when we talked about the preponderance of Beverages and why it’s great to go to just like a liquor store is again some people are like they’re worried about seeing somebody at a dispensary that they know there’s still that stigma and if you’re just at the liquor store you can kind of throw in your cart you know bag it up put it in a koozie when you’re somewhere and just drink on it and nobody’s going to ask any questions and you’re getting high like that’s the [ __ ] appeal right there it’s so cool um so and we kind of glossed over it sorry though I didn’t mean to you can go ahead no I mean I think I think I I that that’s a good point and I think we’re kind of getting towards the end here I mean maybe one two other points I’ll say is like just on this hemp debate um the one thing I struggle with sometimes right even though as I’ve described right there are often concerns about unregulated products is in states that have total prohibition right in some instances this is like the only safe you know or legal way you can get access to cannabinoids and so you routinely hear like in places like Texas for example about how veterans right or people who are ailing Avail themselves of these hemp products and find them to be beneficial and so that’s an interesting sort of um that’s an interesting thing to consider right which is to say even if you might have concerns about some of these products and and whether they’re fully regulated if you just think about all the other crap that is fed to Americans in under the guise of medicine if you think about all of you know the The Limited number of medicinal options that people have or just the fact that they have to resort to Pharmaceuticals that I think makes things more um more uh more difficult right so in places that have really limited medical programs or no medical programs or even places like New Jersey right where like they have a legal cannabis program but it’s so expensive that you’re your Second Amendment right technically that’s the one another really good I just actually interviewed the member from the VFW it’s funny he brought up veterans um the reason they from Missouri that got raided from dhss and Missouri um well they they say they got raided apparently Missouri PD or what dhss disputes that I want it to be clear in the reporting there um anyways the the draw for them with hemp is that it is ferally legal by the letter of the law and they don’t have to as he put it and I know this is a political example but commit a hunter Biden F uh crime when he buys a gun because he’s not you’re not using a schedule one substance you know he’s not lying about that is what he’s saying um and if you participate like I do in a medical cannabis program uh at a state level or or technically if you participate in in an adult use Market you you shouldn’t purchase a firearm from an FFL in other words from like a a store the only way you can do that is if like HS since we know each other now like the only way I can buy a gun is if like you sell me a gun and you can’t buy that gun for the express purpose of giving me that gun it has to be like a totally organic thing from what I understand a private sale as some people call it the gun hole The Gun Show loophole right so real I think it’s in I just want to make this small point that if Universal background checks become a thing and we don’t have any reform on cannabis which we’re going to have rescheduling so it might change things you know who knows what the future holds but as it stands now that would mean that like somebody like myself would no longer be able to purchase a firearm I could still bear arms but I would never be able to pass that Federal well unless I lied right and but that’s a crime so you get my point that was an interesting draw that I feel like nobody’s talking about like we talk about 28e and I make the point about possession caps but this guy made that point I was like oh my God I didn’t think about the fact that a constitutional amendment whatever you feel about that particular amendment I mean you’re it’s it is remarkable that your your choice to use a legal substance precludes you from a constitutional amendment you know yeah from you know precludes you from a constitutional right yeah Absol right yeah exactly 100% no I I think that’s I I being a being an Indian dude from the Bay Area I have no experience with guns but I’m trying to think I I I think we’ve covered most things I final thoughts or or go ahead yeah yeah uh if you had final thoughts I only had one real quick question that has nothing to do with anything we were talking about just because I’ve enjoyed my conversation with you um you talked about like Airbnb in San Francisco is there any truth I read an article like the Airbnb had like bought up all the like is there truth to the idea that it like destroys Big Towns like they buy up all the like popular areas and then there’s like nowhere for anybody to go type of thing yeah I would say there’s in some instances that was a bad question because it was top of the head but that’s fair yeah I think in some instances there’s some truth to that in many instances it’s exaggerated right so like by exaggerated I mean you know like you know many cities acoss this you know rents were rising and there was long this narrative that to your point they bought up a bunch of places and no one has anywhere to live anymore and the reason why it’s so expensive to live in New York City is because everything’s in Airbnb right um and uh I think a lot of times that’s like overstated and you know there are other factors like the fact San Francisco had such high rents is that San Francisco doesn’t build any new housing because it’s almost impossible to navigate that framework that’s why rents are so expensive in San Francisco um and in many instances where you know like New York City has banned Airbnb right for the past year rents aren’t getting any cheaper in New York City right so in in in some instances I think that’s misguided in some instances there’s some truth to it right if you think about really small mountain towns right in in in in Colorado for example like if you think about those really small towns like near Vil right that rely on a service economy in which you know workers are are lower income in order to sustain themselves when people buy up a bunch of properties and use them as airbnbs there’s less long-term housing Supply right and you can more credibly say you’re raising the rents on those folks and and kind of pushing pushing them out so um I think there’s sometimes like some some truth to that um although you know I think in many instances that’s been exaggerated yeah and maybe even in some instances it’s just people that can’t roll with changes they’re like the kids are loud next door it’s like buy a new house grandma like sorry there’s an Airbnb next door yeah exactly exactly um but anyways well hey um dude I appreciate you taking so much time to chat with me for reaching out I’d love to do this again obviously I think that goes without saying you’re welcome anytime and I hope everybody enjoyed this conversation hsh I hope you enjoyed uh your time with me this afternoon I I I did too and can I say one final thing before dude yeah you got the floor take it man well thank you for having me this was this was a really awesome exchange I learned a lot I think what I just want to say in the end is like look we had a really free flowing conversation I learned some stuff right I considered some perspectives I don’t think at least I don’t have the answer like the precise answer right to to this question right and I think anyone whose position can be summed up in like a sentence or two right like the kind of one sentence positions you see in these hysterical posts on LinkedIn for example right um I I’m kind of skeptical of that right anyone’s like oh it’s all about liberating the plant right or or whatever right and like you’re a prohibitionist if you like this was a process of establishing a discourse right maybe between people who may not agree on every single thing and that’s what’s essential here you know I I just want to go back to what I was saying before right like what is happening in cannabis right now is there are there is an effort to break into smaller and smaller tribes and to suggest that my tribe is doing everything that’s virtuous and there are people who have a vested interest in that polarization just like our political culture who benefit in terms of status and other things by being the most hyperbolic voices in that space I would urge everyone no matter where you’re situated in the space to ignore those hyper bolic voices in the same way that you might be a Republican or a Democrat but you might say to yourself the loudest Republican or the loudest Democrat is actually kind of insane like I’m not going to take my cues from that person even though I’m in this this Camp right and so I would say like if we think about what our goals are the our goal is to build comfort with plant medicine right it is to sh what I I I think of it as Shifting the Overton window it is convincing the vast majority of people that do not consume plant medicine and in the near future will not consume plant medicine that this is a safe option that it is beneficial for society that it is a healthy alternative we’re trying to overcome a deeply entrenched historical stigma against a plant that makes no sense and so I would urge all of us no matter our economic interest to think about how we get to that goal to recognize for example that a a largely unregulated hemp space right even though that might be seen as liberating the plant and might be satisfying to like some narrow constituency that’s never going to win over the hearts and minds of this country and that is our goal right to embed this in this country’s social fabric similarly a highly kind of like restrictive you know requiring you know hemp operators to operate in this broken system and I know they vary by state but California being the best example that’s never going to get us there either right and so I don’t think any of us have have the exact Solutions but I would hope we remember that we are all I think most of us trying to achieve the same goals helping people Avail themselves of the wonderful benefits of plant medicine that I’m sure we’ve experienced recurrently in our lives and breaking down a totally insane and counterproductive criminal justice system and I can promise you that if we lose sight of those goals if we’re more intent on figuring out like who are the five people I hate the most right like uh like Kim Rivers like who who are the five boogey men on the other side that I can post histrionically about I’m telling you this thing is going to fail this movement is is is is going to die and other more nefarious actors are going to take our place in the same way that I I mean I hate to cap keep relating it to the United States but in the same way that if we keep fighting each other dude like you know Vladimir Putin and xiin ping like they’re just they’re just gonna be having parties so um I I I hope we remember why we’re all in this even if none of us have the answer the exact answer well said well um I love that answer because it makes me feel better about an answer I gave last night at the premiere of my mini do somebody said you know do you I laid out one clear very clear and I think amenable solution to the case of Illinois um but that’s a teaser for my mini do um but one of the the way I answered it last night was exactly how you just answered it where it’s like I have these ideas but I don’t claim to have an answer and I think that’s a great way that I think that’s why I enjoyed my conversation with you so much today HH and I just want to encourage people to follow you on Twitter I’ve got it in the um show notes so that you can connect with them I’ve got other links that we may have mentioned as well I do my best to throw them in sometimes I get high and I’ll just throw in hh’s link so that you can connect with hers but anyways um HS thank you for sitting down with me and folks I hope you found as much value in this conversation as I did HS we’ll see you in the next one thank you so much cole yep take care
The Cole Memo 
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