In this episode, I sit down with Scott Redman and Reese Xavier. The conversation covers key topics such as the hurdles in operationalizing craft grow licenses, the implications of federal and state regulations on the industry, and the ongoing debate around the regulation of hemp-derived intoxicants.
About IICGA:
The Illinois Independent Craft Growers Association (IICGA) was founded in 2021 to promote, support, and advocate for the advancement of independent cannabis craft grow licensees in Illinois. The organization plays a crucial role in shaping the industry landscape, ensuring that smaller, independent growers have a voice in a rapidly evolving market.
About HT23:
HT23 is positioned as Illinois’ premier cannabis cultivation operation. As a 100% African-American owned business, HT23 is deeply committed to community revitalization, offering residents in their partner community opportunities to fuel economic development and growth through the cannabis industry.
About Reese Xavier:
Reese Xavier is a serial entrepreneur and the CEO & Managing Partner of HT23 Growers. With a Master Certification in Cannabis and a passion for cultivation, Reese is dedicated to educating medical cannabis cardholders on setting up successful small ‘home grow’ operations in accordance with Illinois law. His leadership at HT23 reflects a commitment to community empowerment and industry innovation.
About Scott Redman:
Scott Redman is a Chicago-based attorney with 35 years of experience representing highly regulated industries, including food, telecom, gaming, and cannabis. Since 2019, Scott has been deeply involved in the cannabis industry, successfully leading Drecisco Farms, LLC in obtaining craft grow, infuser, and transportation licenses in 2021. He is also the lead author of “Illinois Adult Use Cannabis: Cannabis Knowledge for Principal Officers” (2020, Eckhartz Press) and continues to guide cannabis business entities through all aspects of their development.
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The auto-generated transcript is available below.
beginning January 1st 2020 the recreational use of cannabis will be legal in the state of Illinois available to stream now my mini do dives into the history of Illinois legalization starting with January 1st what should we expect the biggest thing that we need people to understand is that January 1 in terms of the Criminal Justice System here in this state is the end of prohibition see how Illinois missed its chance at real cannabis reform with key failures including the fact that the program includes regulation on possession limits so people can still be arrested for a possession and I want to highlight that in its first year of legalized recreational marijuana in the state of Illinois they arrested three times as many black people for possession than any other race we’ve run into so much cannabis we’ve run out of places to put it I have represented people and taken their cases through the court system who got charged with more serious crimes only because the police said that they smelled cannabis and not because the police said you have illegal cannabis or not because you have too much cannabis or not because you’re high on cannabis but because I can smell it and that’s it attorney goes he understands that he can’t be smoking and his cannabis flower shouldn’t be open and I was like I’d like to say a further record that I was not smoking and my flower was not open so uh that’s where we’re at right now in Illinois and I hope it changes start watching now at coal memo.com minock [Music] [Music] hello and welcome everybody and hello and welcome Scott and REE now Scott this is your first time on the Cole memo but it’s not the first time we’ve talked on a podcast so I’m going to let reys go ahead and introduce himself first and then I’ll let you reintroduce yourself so ree welcome to the Cole memo thanks for sitting down with me thank you for happening absolutely and if you don’t mind uh could you go ahead and just uh you know tell us a little bit about yourself and uh you know a little bit about your cannabis operation here in Illinois sure uh my name is Ree Xavier I am CEO and managing partner of ht23 uh Growers custom crafers but we uh DBA as um HD2 Growers uh we have a facility in Chicago Heights that we’re looking to operationalize um hopefully in the near future um we obtained a cultivation license a craft grow license back in 21 June 21 July 21 and um uh yeah that’s me awesome Scott thanks for having Co thanks for having Reese as well I’m Scott Redmond I’m a an attorney here in uh Chicago and have uh been involved in cannabis since 2019 and um have been uh one of the founders or am one of the founders of a successful craft grow infuser and transport um company and also back in 2020 when the licenses were being delayed I saw a need for advocacy on behalf of the craft Growers specifically um and uh formed the Illinois independent craft growers association as uh as a result and I’m happy to say that Reese was one of our first uh board members to uh say yeah let’s do this and he’s been a valuable part of the organization since then um I ALS I also have as I said I was on a successful craft grow team and our brand is uh sweet buzz by Dre Cisco farms and uh that’s out in over 100 stores as we speak here so um we’ve got two perspectives not that they’re different but ree is still working on getting himself operational like so many of our members and our group has been successful in getting operational um in large part through self self-funding which it makes a big difference yeah and what was uh what was the website for sweet buzz if people want to get connected uh getbuzzed perfect and Reese your brand is savior Savor you got you’re muted uh uh reys there you go all right yeah so we were fortunate enough to so just a little bit more background like I I got involved in the Cannabis industry here in Illinois right around 2016 that was basically going around attending every cannabis event possible um learning from from folks like Chicago normal uh Illinois women in cannabis and and the valuable resources that and people that I’ve met through those organizations and others um and started building relationships with folks throughout Illinois and the Canada space one of the relationships that I’ve had uh enabled us to um start and launch a brand in Missouri uh so so we launched Savor our Flagship um edible brand uh we launched that uh last year and we’re looking to launch it here in Illinois our website requires a lot of help so we’re still in the process of getting things moving there sweet but it looks like if people want to maybe connect uh ht23 growers.com um we’ll have both those links in the show notes folks I’m displaying the websites right now sweet Buzz man that’s a beautiful website um so uh we come together today uh because I recently created I say recently I actually recently published it I think I on LinkedIn I think I actually published it almost like eight months ago on um Instagram but uh you know I felt like you both uh and you aren’t you two are not the only ones by any means uh but you both had some really good feedback uh on the real so I don’t know I thought maybe that’s that’s a place to start because uh I feel like it is a conversation maybe about this debate is depicted um do you want to start there or or how how did you want to start I kind of pitch it to you all um do you think that’s a good place to start since that Scott your thoughts but I think it gives a little more context to the to the course of this dialogue yeah yeah yeah yeah would it be prudent to play it it’s only a minute and 30 seconds do it okay cool I will play it and then we will open the floor start that I’m a cannabis industry billionaire and you know what I’m pretty [ __ ] pissed off about these hemp operators you see I’ve established a firm regulatory foothold within several nent cannabis markets across these United States and these [ __ ] think they can just come in and sell weed too I’m sorry but that’s not how payto playay works I’m focused on one thing and one thing only cash money [ __ ] we poured at least 600k into lobbying in one state alone in order to ensure we would have no competition and then progressives like Donald Trump and Mitch McConnell want to come in and pull the rug out from under us we’re working alongside organizations like smart approaches to marijuana and the Drug Enforcement Administration to close what we’re calling a loophole what some are calling an opportunity here’s the thing we believe in limited opportunity in case you haven’t figured it out yet the limitations are what bring in the cash money [ __ ] the best part of all of this we have the community’s full support on waging this new offensive we’ve learned that if we push stories in the media the community will do the leg work and secure our market for us we’ve successfully framed an opportunity as an attack on social Equity thank you for helping to increase the size of my regulatory Mo don’t let the Gators get you check out my work at De so that’s that’s the real and I want to give you both the floor uh after having played it oh shoot go ahead Rees yeah I I’m I’m happy to start um you know I I looked at it as very satirical um but it didn’t I I was it felt to me that it didn’t paint the complete picture uh hemp in and of itself is a28 billion doll industry well I have to imagine the the same way it’s depicted these uh billionaire uh cannabis folks there’s also the billionaire hemp folks right and I I don’t think you know the satirical piece and I accept it for what it is uh does not paint a complete picture and I thought it’d be a great space to have this conversation to kind of uh round out the photo round out that image and picture and really talk about um cannabis from the perspective of social equity as well where uh the opportunities aren’t as great and sometimes the opportunities are limited and more specifically uh States like Illinois has at the very minimum attempted to open a door to um uh people of color to participate in the industry a a well regulated um costly Endeavor but having the opportunity to participate um you know has the potential to open a lot of doors for a lot of people of color and um opportunity to communities of color yeah and I would add um it’s it’s um the messaging um your your video um is is really a byproduct and a result of the messaging that’s been put out there that that this is big cannabis against these poor help you know helpless hemp businesses and um certainly there are the big cannabis is is involved um but if if the market were to go to hell you know today the the big cannabis guys would still still be out there they’d survive they have such a tow hold particularly in Illinois that um that covid gave them that the gayan licensing gave them the opportunity to really get um to get firmly firmly established here in the adult use Market that they would they would be around um it is the the real problem that that we see uh from the hemp industry and and let’s let’s let’s be real clear there’s there’s multiple parts to the hemp industry and and the the castration of that industry goes back you know almost a hundred years um when the oil industry got started feeling very uneasy about this product and the textile industry started feeling real uneasy about this product and everything just got tossed into the to to being illegal um so there is a textile component to this there is a a um oil and and fuel um aspect of hemp that the farm bill if you ask most people involved and look at the legislative history that was what was trying to be Unleashed in connection with um the farm bill of 2018 CBD you know there’s also health benefits and CBD was thought of and that’s why a byproduct that has less than the appropriate percentage of THC can can still be produced and sold but what’s happened is that science has gotten the better of of things and people have figured out ways to synthesize CBD and other cannabinoids into intoxicating cannabinoids so that’s really what we’re talking about here is is the intoxicating cannabinoids that are being um used um as an alternative to cannabis and I I even hesitate when I say the word cannabis because it is in cannabis but it’s it’s it’s being used in in replacement or in um as an alternative a much cheaper alternative um to the regulated product that is allowed in the in the medical and in the adult youth States and for those that don’t really understand how we can actually have an in a legal illegal business like cannabis it’s because the federal government has decided that it’s not a top priority pursue as long as States and this is the key as long as states have a well-regulated um licensing and and Regulatory enforcement procedures to govern cannabis in their state and that means heavy regulation um heavy security control of the plant and its and its uh products from seed to sale and that means that it’s a very expensive business for people to get into and that’s what’s happening here is that the business is so expensive to get into that the social Equity businesses largely minority businesses um are having a hard time getting up and running because the barrier to entry is so so high to to to have a the ability to process and and to grow 5,000 square fet of plants which sounds like a lot but in the commercial context it’s really not that much you have to spend three four five million and and there aren’t banks that are really willing to lend people that money there are a few out there but they only make a few loans and it’s very difficult and when you have something like hemp intoxicating canaps they start taking away market share and originally the argument was no they don’t and then the argument was well they’re not intoxicating now the argument is well we’re too entrenched and I like to call them Cana squatters right you got the Cana curious you got the Cana attack they’re the Cana squatters they got in the door while someone wasn’t paying attention and now they’re squatting and they’re saying you can’t kick me out I’m here look at all the good I’m doing I’m here I’m employing all these people yeah but you’re squatting and I’ll take it a step further like if we look at throughout this nation what intoxicating product is federally legal with no regulation whatsoever I can’t think of one I cannot think of one outside of uh him derived intoxicants and let’s be clear it is THC period well and I yeah and I think it’s important to mention that it it doesn’t have no regulations it’s the only regulation that has has is that the Delta 9 percentage doesn’t exceed 3% but to your point it doesn’t include all the tests you have to like the safy tests right even if you look at hemp even if you look at hemp right what they’ve done to skirt the law is remove the Del the uh Delta 9 component right Delta 8 is an intoxicant right so even when you’re processing a hemp derived intoxicant what they basically do is take when they extract from that H that 03 which is still under the legal law right and then they separate they basically remove the Delta 9 which the law was specific in it and I think obviously I think there was some oversight you know that’s that’s the nature of technology and that’s the kind of our laws in this country yeah is never meant to be perfect right there I I can’t think of a law that’s 100% perfect it has some gray areas and then when you discover the good or the harm that’s created by those the the the movement is to close those things right at some point in our country uh a person of color was considered three- fifths of a human that was just what it was when over time we realize the flaws in that and you you quickly move to close that right yeah so so the the the laws in this country are far from perfect but they strive towards Perfection well when this was created you know I think the thought behind it was let’s remove the intoxicated cannaboid so hemp in and of itself and CBD and the medicinal uh benefits of CBD is good it’s not an intoxicant the value of the hemp plant as a you know you can do textiles you can do a bunch of things with the hemp plant in of itself that’s great that’s great for the industry that’s great for the farmers and I believe the intent was to strip out the intoxicating part and I think at the time it was just assume that the only intoxicating canono was uh Delta 9 well we we we know it’s not Delta 9 anymore and quite frankly I’m willing to bet we will soon discover it’s some other intoxicants greater than d8 and D9 oh yeah you know we we we learn as we go um so so you know I I I don’t think that was the intent and then I go back to the original question if you strip the D9 from the product and you’re just dealing with d8 d8 which is an intoxicant I cannot think of one not one intoxicating product in this country that goes unregulated well and again I think it just to make the point it falls under a different set of regulations because you know I know a lot of people in Illinois will call these some of these hemp producers unlicensed sellers it’s sort of a misnomer uh I mean unless they’re truly unlicensed under the hemp act what I think oftentimes what people mean by that is they’re not licensed under the cannabis regulation and tax act right okay that’s fair um so but and also to your point they’re not subject to the same testing regulations uh which are extremely strict and we’ve detailed it on the show uh in the past they’re really hard to comply with you know um distribution channels right and and I guess just the point I wanted to make like I definitely want to talk about synthetics uh but like before we get to that like I just want to talk about like you know you talk about intent and everything and I am no lawyer no Scott Scott you are um but I have talked to another lawyer Scott maybe you’re familiar with them um and candidly I know some people that disagree with their interpretation but um they basically talk about the language in the farm bill and the difference between the 2018 farm bill and the 2014 farm bill and specifically and it’s actually even included I didn’t mean to uh but it was included it very there’s a very quick moment it’s included in that reel where it shows Mitch McConnell signing what he called the 2018 um hemp farming act in 2014 it was called the 2014 Industrial Hemp farming act so they dropped the term industrial between 2014 and 2018 and they added a subset of cannaboids salts and isomers that I don’t know like to me like these are canabo that are meant for consumption that are listed and I’ve always been known to be listed for consumption so I I don’t disagree with you that I look I’m not trying to say here that Mitch McConnell and Donald Trump secretly legalized weed because some people say that and I think that’s wild what I think is this is a classic case of legislators not understanding what they’re legislating so a point you said earlier about the science that’s that I think that’s more part of the synthetic part but like just down to like the language of the law it’s clear in a product like this which is produced by River Bluff uh so social Equity brand that also makes hemp products this and actually frankly most of the Edibles that are produced in Illinois dispensaries qualify as hemp you know I mean they would meet that legal definition now could they be sold as it no because they’ve been cultivated and produced under the Cannabis regulation and Tax Act but my point is I just I really want to like set the foundation by like you know I know there’s this debate about intent on the farm bill and I think it would be misleading and just frankly false to say that anybody intended to legalize weed with the 2018 Farm Bill setting that aside the language is clear you know but but and we won’t blab this point because it’ll it’ll bore people but they went from industrial to to and took that out because the industrial side is the textile side the industrial side is the is the uh um oils and and things like that for purposes of fuel that’s the industrial use then there is the consumption use and they added as you said a bunch of different um substances that are allowed because they realize that people can consume aspects of this product for health benefits but they didn’t include intoxicating ones cor that’s the point and that’s the point we’re talking about here we’re not talking about various isomers and and non- intoxicating CBD we’re talking about the ones that weren’t listed and and that came in as a loophole even the people in the industry recognize it is a loophole I mean the majority there may be people out there that say this was intended but they are in the Far Far minority yeah um you know so in any event and and and we haven’t even touched on thca flower which is well and that’s what I was about to say is that’s actually the example I was going to use to sort of push back against you because thca flower and I’ve even had Tom Howard on who is by no means a hemper he’s very anti-m and he’s I don’t I’ve got the clip queued up we don’t have to watch it but he’s point out that a lot of the the flower and the dispensary could qualify as hemp you know what I mean and so well yes of course I’ve said the same thing it’s because you’re supposed to be measuring you should be measuring total THC which is thca and THC there is very little THC in most flower in in in in in the majority of St very little THC that’s the point I’m trying to make and Reese I’m sorry your your mic is actually muted I had to mute you because when we’re talking sometimes we’re getting a little bit of feedback I’m going to give you the space here but that is the point I’m trying to make you’re absolutely right that the intoxicating canabo were not listed like you just said Delta 9 is not naturally occurring in the plan at high levels I think somebody was in the room during the 2018 Farm Bell and they were going hey if everybody just shuts the [ __ ] up well that could we’re going to be able to get this to happen and you want if if you want to call it a loophole you know I I get why you would do that but on its face when you start the sentence Cole is if everyone just shuts up that’s that implies right there a loophole that hey no one is noticing this you know what I mean that there’s I feel like that’s indicative and I I know that this we could get lost in the whole conversation here but I just really want to reiterate that I think that’s indicative of of a larger problem in American politics where the legislators aren’t reading the law that they’re noing they’re not you know so I get your point and um I I reys I know I was going to pass it over to you here but I I like really think that this is there’s a really and I’m sure you’ve heard this one before so maybe you’ve already got a response to it but like I really do view this as Uber and taxi Medallion and when I look at it through that lens I actually feel a lot of compassionate for you cannabis operators because you did everything you could to follow the rules and then all of a sudden this you know nobody expected the smartphone to allow people to you know hail cars to them we always thought we would be dependent on the cap system so I get why you’re like what the [ __ ] we did everything to follow the rules and then here comes in this like semi-regulated indust unregulated industry and it’s not perfect either by the way there’s a lot of issues with Uber just like there are a fair sizable amount of issues with hemp but that’s kind of the way I look at it where it’s like it’s almost like neither side is wrong because you’re both providing people a ride you’re both getting people high it’s just like which regulatory system is right and of course I think you’re going to say the crta because you’ve had to pay these fees and you know understandably so um but anyways I’ve gone on and on and I promised re some space here re no no I’ll take your example and maybe go a bit a bit further as I understand it with Uber and the introduction of uber it was a industry disruptor it was not ushered in through the legal process now I could be wrong on that I think what happened I think that’s correct yeah right and I think what happened was and and it took regul the legal regulatory system to kind of reain it in if you will and that’s the result of your taxis and the medallions right they said hey wait a minute yeah and then they start to rule reign in to a certain degree industry disruptors this is different there was not this industry disruption prior to the 2018 farm bill right right and we can go down the path of intent I I that’s a tough one to talk about because no one really knows what the intent we can go down that path of what was being said in secret rooms um but we do know what we do know for for certain is there was an attempt to re in um at least one intoxicating canabo it’s spelled out clearly right D9 it’s spelled out clearly that’s illegal we want to make sure it’s under 03 Delta 9 THC well we didn’t talk about all the other stuff maybe they knew about it maybe they didn’t we won’t go down that path of intent but I think I think when you using that analogy with Uber it’s this is not this is much different than an industry disruptor someone who came up with a different idea to make life more efficient and Etc right so I I just wanted to highlight that that point um I also would would would say again to your point kind of talked about this a little earlier we absolutely did follow rules I think in Illinois specifically and what you see is starting to be the The Benchmark for new states that introduced cannabis regulation there is an attempt to usher in um people of color to participate in this in this potentially lucrative Endeavor um I don’t think there was uh a recognition of the challenges that it would take to operationalize these businesses I don’t think it was any consideration on what it took to uh Capital receive the capital necessary to up the business um but again to the point I think we all agree most of our politicians um they have to be educated on certain aspects of industry and it and it depends on who’s providing that education dictates the outcome of that law you know and until until the law is enacted and then you start realizing the positive or the negative that happens as a result of it and then change happens right and I think we’re in that space right now uh I personally would love to see listen at the end of the day Delta 8 is THC let’s just be 100% clear about that right yeah and I I I I used to hold this position if you’re going to regulate THC regulate it the same well that’s what I wanted to kind of bring us to like you know believe it or not a lot of people don’t believe this so I’m actually going to show a biotrack label I think for the first time on on the show for this the first place I ever tried Delta 8 was in Illinois see this this is a Delta 8 product from Grassroots in Lichfield Illinois um this was in 2019 when I had my medical card and um I guess my point in bringing this up is because delta8 is often used is like kind it’s kind of demonized and personally I didn’t like it I don’t prefer it I only know one person that does and they only like it because they don’t like to get super high it’s an older lady that likes the benefits she gets from Cannabis but doesn’t want to get too high so again I don’t know a lot of people that like it but i’ I’ve always just felt like if there are this many concerns about it then we should subject it to these testing standards that we obviously have in the past right I’ll take it I’ll take it a step further Beyond just testing right our distribution channels we can’t sell I don’t give a [ __ ] how much is tested I can’t sell it in the gas station I I I can’t put a piece of fruit on my packaging you understand what I’m saying I can’t put a piece of fruit on my packaging no one says frout in and of itself is appealing to Children except for Illinois Law yeah and you can’t and you can’t transport your product to your retail outlets other than in more or less an armored car with two drivers right I mean that’s that’s part of the whole Le Federal look the other way in terms of legalization you have to control the product you have to control the plant it has to be highly secure highly safe and and and none of that is part of the the intoxicating cannabinoid industry right and is it fair to say that you are kind of operating under a loophole the coal memo well the co yeah the co the coal memo um yes and no um yes in a sense sure because the federal government has said that it will not it basically impinge on state rights if a state wants to legalize this and gives it enough control over the over the industry that it will allow the enforcement to to the state um it’s it’s explicit so when I when you say loophole I I don’t want to use the word loopo because it’s not explicit um for the for the uh Delta 8 Etc it’s just not there so by not being there it’s being exploited and and and and pursued ours is specifically addressed in in Department of Justice guidelines and and it created the the state industry right and I guess the way that I look at this is like like ree Point brought up earlier he’s not aware of something that’s like federally legal but isn’t subject to regulations so what we’ve basically done with hemp I feel is what we did and you can look at this at the end of the farm bill at the very end of the 2018 Farm Bill scroll all the way down people you can see where they descheduled what we arbitrarily defined as hemp now alcohol and tobacco are also descheduled but Teresa’s point they there are State based regulations for each of these systems and I just want to say is somebody who loves hemp and I’ll tell you why I love hemp in in a second it’s not because I’m in the industry or anything else um but it’s somebody that like uh loves hemp I’m all for regulations and that maybe that’s how we’ll close it’s like I think that’s where we differ is how how we regulate it if I could quickly and then we’ll have that conversation the reason I love hemp again is I made April Fool’s joke some people think I I do sell hemp that was a April Fool’s joke I I don’t sell hemp I don’t sell cannabis I don’t have any aspirations to get into the Cannabis industry honestly I’ve just been a cannabis consumer my entire life and Via what has happened with hemp and the farm bill I’ve benefited off of more access to the cannabis plant than any state-based program that I’ve experienced and I’ve been to a few Colorado Illinois and others and what I mean by that is no purchase limits no possession limits uh no dosage caps you can get it mailed to your door you can pay with your credit card a lot of these things that you might feel is unfair rightfully so because we should be able to do that with your products too um but anyways that’s why love hemp wanted to get that out of the way what is the issue with because we talked about testing and everything else and the fact that these aren’t subject to the same testing standards what you know there have been proposals by hemp Farmers that say okay we’re not tested we’ll do that we’ll even be taxed at the same rate how do you how do you respond to that um proposal and idea again I’ll take this position reg it’s THC if we can all agree with that it’s THC it’s an intoxicating THC if we can agree with that my position is you regulate us the exact thing either allow the Cannabis industry to sell to children to sell inside gas stations and anywhere we want allow us to have packaging that looks like your regular candy allow our products to get in in the hands of anybody or you regulate him the exact same way cannabis or you know legal cannabis is is regulated in the state of Illinois meaning there are certain testing standard there’s packaging standards there’s distribution standards um security standards security standards the exact same I can only sell my product to a uh licensed dispensary I guess my question is like so all those Public Safety things great and it seems like everybody’s on the same page but all those punitive things that you rightfully have complained about today and people have rightfully complained about in the past the Vault requirements the security requirements like why must we treat cannabis like it’s nuclear material it seems like you’re doubling down on that system no no what I’m suggesting is regulate us the same right now Fair one rule change the rules for us Fair yeah yeah if you’re willing to do that okay change the rules for us and I don’t think you were serious when you said obviously the kids thing but uh I hope you were serious when you said because I truly do believe like and you know this is the question I asked somebody recently I showed a video I went into a gas station and there were these really sketchy hemp products that I’ve never heard about and I wouldn’t have bought but I asked somebody I said you know and they they agreed with me they’re like I would never you know get those but I asked them this question and Scott you pointed this out to me uh when we had a phone call I believe you know a lot of these big Brands I’m displaying some on my screen right now Cur Leaf cookies uh GTI with their Incredibles they’re they’re in hemp not only in the regulated cannabis industry but like I’ve gone to smoke shops and there’s Incredibles on sale and I’m like what I’ve seen this in Illinois dispensaries this is crazy and so um yeah like like my my question is like why not just pivot to to that you know there’s like River Bluff did no no no no no no let’s let’s get that one straight River Bluff was a Delta eight company based in Iowa then they got a craft grow license they didn’t pivot to Delta 8 they pivoted to Legal cannabis in Illinois kept their delta8 operations in Iowa and now seeing they can do some of that here in Illinois they are so and and you can have those they’re friends they’re members of our association they’re they’re kind of straddling the line but they did start on the on the hemp side um even and I don’t mean to cut you off but even like the order I feel like doesn’t change my point you know what I mean like the order and I appreciate you correcting that but I feel like the fact that they do it both that’s what was really my question they sure that also proves our point that that that it’s just far easier to continue down the path or to take up the path either way right of of the Delta 8 or the other intoxicating cannaboid products because you can sell them over the Internet because you don’t have all of that security expense I mean hundreds of thousands of dollars of security in the production facilities I mean literally I’m not exaggerating we have to maintain 90 days of video on all these cameras 100 plus cameras 90 days of video in the cloud do you understand what that costs that bandwidth costs thousands and thousands of dollars a month right they have none of that so so the the the problem with the question you raised is why don’t we reduce it for everybody and I don’t disagree that would be great but um that’s going to take something at the federal level because the things that are being imposed on us are to comply with the mandate of the coal memo which is heavily secure keeping the product out of the illicit Market etc etc and just like you know uh any other product that’s intoxicating there are there there are gutters you know there are guard rails to keep it where it wants to be and and I will correct you one thing there is an there’s a bureau federal bureau called ATF right Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms it is definitely regulated at the federal level don’t don’t be mistaken there alcohol and tobacco are both regulated heavily at the federal level so that’s what is missing is is there’s they they created potentially an Avenue for something that is regulated almost every other context but they didn’t provide for the the the groundwork on on this product just really just really quick sorry reys but the the state I appreciate you adding that the layer of ATF the state really the point with my state thing is that there are some states that have dispensaries for alcohol but then like States in Illinois I can go to my local cases and get alcohol that was really my right yeah sure for sure or states right also have to get a license to provide that sell that right alcohol correct and a license come from the state of Illinois which says they have to go through some hurdles and Hoops in order to get that license to do it and let me just clarify when I said allow us to sell the children the point was I was making was is able to be sold to children and no one thinks that should be the case um that’s and we talked about the order right is why don’t we just get inside the hemp business I think that’s kind of was the Genesis of this your question yeah listen the barrier to enter hemp is a lot lower than the barrier it is to enter cannabis if I start down cannabis path I’ve invested a lot of money time and energy just to get halfway there now to Pivot and go back to hemp [ __ ] impossible had I started with hemp my barrier to entry is extremely low and perhaps I can generate some revenue and and then put me in a position if i w a license to be able to stand up that particular license who knows I don’t know but the way we were able to get into the industry was following the rules that were laid out by the state of Illinois right and this one of my biggest challenges especially as a um a person of color who was fortunate enough to to earn one of the licenses we followed the rules yeah can I try yep go ahead try to boil this down like because I know we’re getting to the top of our time like it really sounds like what you’re saying because it’s not it’s not impossible for you to Pivot to hemp like I talked to David Lakeman and I was like if I got a hemp license today he’s like oh you’d be walking out with one this afternoon so like but I know what you meant though like it would be [ __ ] after all the money you’ve spent paying all these licensing fees setting everything up I get what you mean it would be it would be like but I just thank you for that yes yeah I just um I still don’t understand like why there I just wonder where the middle ground is because you all bring up very valid points about the ridiculous regulations you have to deal with but then it seems like you’re like you’re saying like well that has to be the answer because him has nothing and it’s like where is the is there somewhere in the middle and is it is it I guess my real question is is it is it only about that accessibility is it only about limited licensing and the economic viability of changing our Market which is what that would be I mean frankly like if we get down to Brass tax that’s what these hempers are proposing they’re saying we couldn’t get into the system right Scott we couldn’t get into the system so let’s change all the rules and let everybody in you know and I guess there people like yourself who are like there shouldn’t be I don’t want to say there shouldn’t be any rules but but you’re you’re on the record of saying free to plan there’s no reason we shouldn’t be able to grow this and sell it at at farmers markets and be able to consume it’s a personal Liberty kind of thing and I’m not disagreeing with the concept but that’s that’s generally not how our country works you can you can grow all the uh carrots you want in your backyard and you can try to at a farmers’s market you might have a little trouble depending on the local regulations um but you know no one’s going to get up in arms about you selling carrots at the farmers’s market people will get up in arms if you do a home brew and try to sell that at a farmer’s market do all the home brewing you want Cole drink it on the weekends with your brother-in-law right it’s not going to kill the beer industry it’s it’s just a hobby thing um but you can’t just go sell it you can’t put it in the Stream of Commerce without there being some guard rails and you’re right I would have loved to seen the guard rails softened years ago that would have been great it would help a lot of people get into the industry it would make it far far more cost effective to be in the industry because the product price is so high because of all the expenses that go into what we have to do here in Illinois we people are making a normal profit margin if they’re making a profit margin at all despite how high the price are in Illinois um and it would be great but it’s it’s like saying well you know we’re halfway through the race let’s change the rules take off the limiter on the carburetors and everyone can just go fast because we have 10 guyses going really fast without a limiter well you know that and that might be an analogy that a lot of people don’t understand but it it we are where we are um and and there will be a change look we’re not we’re not I think so naive to think that this isn’t ever going to be descheduled or rescheduled or maybe even made totally legal and and and those have that have invested all this money are going to be um in trouble and I asked this question I asked this question of Charlie Charlie beel from Cresco back in 20 early 2020 right before the pandemic hit he was speaking at a a Chicago um Society of Chartered Financial analysts he was speaking to a bunch of stock analysts right and someone asked the question about Federal legalization because at least at that point people are like oh as soon as it’s fly legal you guys are going to be quadruple billionaires he’s and he and a guy from GTI they were both like no our goal is to is to build up and make as much money as we can until it further legalizes hopefully have a big enough footprint that someone wants to buy us because once that happens it’s going to be Altria or it’s going to be you know Bush or or whoever and Amazon doing the delivery by drones it’s it’s going to be a totally different industry and people like myself and Reese unless we can build a real brand recognition and we’re not going to sell our facilities that’s not likely it’s going to be the brand that gets sold if it gets sold so it’s it is really a dark cloud that’s out there for most of PE the small people in the industry I think and it’s it’s and I’ll say this point really quick I know we’re running short on time um you know there are certain states that did not have limits on license and there’s a lot of folks who lost big time in those States Illinois had a limit on license and that impacted those who decide to participate or at least attempt to get a mark uh get in the industry there because you have to evaluate at some point how much does it cost to make an get in the industry and do you attempt to uh make a profit often times this was talked about is Generation wealth if there’s not a limit on license there is no opportunity for generational wealth unless of course you just build this outstanding brand and you just kill it that’s possible but it’s certainly a lot more challenging with a limit limit license the opportunity is a little bit greater right so you know it’s understanding the rules of the game if you will and deciding if you want to invest and play well we did we got in we won and all of a sudden again the rules change like it’s like we need a little more equity and fairness um for those who are spending a lot just to participate with the desire and hope to achieve that generational wealth that was I don’t want to say promised but it was um looked at as an opportunity when participating in this industry yeah yeah well said and well I’ve just got uh three quick points that I’d like to make and then uh give you the floor to close um so uh I just wanted to like totally correct the record because Scott you’re not completely wrong um but like I want to like kind of add some Nuance to my point oh did we least lose no I’m still here I just gotta plug in no problem um so I would say my like perspective is that you know if you’re going to sell cannabis commercially just like kind of you were saying Scott if you’re going to sell Tomatoes commercially or even large scale at farm markets okay we’re talking like ped license or some equivalent but um I’m going to quote like Ed Rosenthal I’ll share my screen for folks that want to see I believe the model for cannabis is tomatoes and I know some people will argue oh Tomatoes aren’t intoxicating that’s not the point don’t get caught up in that I’m talking about the market structure more tomatoes are grown in America by home gardeners than are produced commercially I want to just repeat that one one more time one more tomatoes are grown in America by home gardeners than are produced Comm commercially yet there’s a robust commercial market for tomatoes tomato products of all types canned Vine ripened organic sauces soups ketchup Etc at the same time you have small scale specialty cultivators doing well selling their produce at farmers markets and home gardeners with extra tomatoes sharing their Bounty with their neighbors as gifts in trade or through informal informal sales marijuana could be handled in the same way commercial Growers can Thrive by side side side by side with home and Specialty cultivators that’s kind of where I stand it’s not that I don’t want regulation it’s just that as a cannabis consumer oh no we lost Scott I think he did say he had to take a call so maybe he’ll be right back uh he he was saying a phone call is coming in um can as a cannabis consumer though ree I don’t know how long you’ve been consuming cannabis oh Scott’s back um I’ll try to restate this question here but as a cannabis consumer you know I don’t know if you’ve heard about the federal government SP spraying parac quat on cannabis plants back in the day but you know like I’m not again I’m not saying testing isn’t needed but back in the day when we didn’t even have testing and the federal government was spraying paraquad on our plants what we did was we we got to know our grower and so I’m not saying that you know everybody has to find a home grower but maybe a trusted brand right and so that’s kind of I know I D I lost you there for a second Scott but uh to put it shortly the way I look at it is I think it’s we’re on the same page if you’re operating at a commercial level or even a midsize commercial level you should have to comply with licensing and regulations so that there’s like uh I don’t want to call it seed to sale but some sort of uh Procol so protocol so that you can do recalls and stuff like that right yeah sure um and and I don’t know I just I have trouble with some people really seem scared that like a home Gardener is going to affect the market no and I just I just think about Tomatoes you can only get one crop through a year you know and then illino allows for hom grow I started as a hom grower yeah only for medical card yeah yeah got my medical card it’s it’s not extremely challenging to get a medical card and you know I I still grow now that fueled my passion to go after this endeavor yeah like and I still believe that I can grow the best cannabis in the state period yeah hell yeah we should uh we should have a little competition maybe yes sponsor homeg grow medical card only homeg grow competition actually I’m excited to say that there’s something at Molly’s joint a social Equity dispensary it’s called the No Coast Cannabis Cup and it’s supposed to be hom Growers vers industry which I think sounds interesting I’m all for that yeah I hope to see you there apparently I might be a judge that’s the word on the street um so I’ve got two more questions for you um and this one is I don’t know if you’ve ever thought about it this way but since we brought up the spirit of the law the bill you know this proposal with hemp a lot of you know I heard Aaron Johnson one time say at a fireside chat that I attended uh with the Cannabis Business Association of Illinois one of the things that law enforcement can’t do right now with these hemp shops is go in because it’s federally legal right and so what if we were to create I think it was House Bill 4293 that would have given more uh let’s say latitude for law enforcement in the state to kind of investigate and see or these people actually legit licensed Etc and I guess my question is you know people bring up the spirit of the law in the farm bill but the first sentence of the Cannabis regulation and Tax Act is in the interest of allowing law enforcement to focus on violent and property crime the general assembly finds and declares that the use of cannabis should be legal so I feel like it could be argued that giving law enforcement the latitude to focus on anything but that is not in the Spirit of the crta what do you say what do you what do you think about that well it’s cannabis outside of the crta is still very much illegal you’re absolutely right you know and so if if uh you’re growing you know 10 acres out in the middle of Southern Illinois you you’re going to get busted if and it’s still very much in law enforcement’s interest to make sure that that the illicit Market is still challenged appropriately you know not someone growing five plants in their backyard which you know as a kid you could have been pretty darn concerned about right um but um it’s still very much illegal at at at um outside of this outside of this regulatory structure right to your point Scott like the Cannabis Control Act of 1978 which originally created the the all the penalties for cannabis are basically mostly still in effect today the crta just removed the 30 gram possession limit you know right I don’t know if there have been any cases um of people having unregulated having you know less than 30 grams of unregulated cannabis you know it’s just in a baggie yeah I don’t know I don’t know if the cops are going after people for that or not right um I don’t think you have to show them your packaging so I imagine I think the closest thing I’ve seen to it personally is like if if somebody is traveling with unregulated cannabis in a vehicle technically speaking in a vehicle there is a as you probably know Scott there’s a transportation code for the container so yeah right they’ll get you there well hey uh this last question and I want to while I show you this video I want to ask you the question before hand because we’ll close this out you know we talked about social Equity my question to you is what’s your definition of social equity and I’m going to play another lawmaker’s definition of social Equity so while I play that uh I think that’s a good note to close on today so here is uh representative Ammons this is a Peak at my upcoming mini documentary enjoy representative Ammons what would a truly Equitable cannabis program look like to you I think we would start by fulfilling the promise that was made when you pass legalization in the first place I think a truly Equitable program has to remove all criminal penalties in relationship to the legal substance that you are allowing to be sold and taxed in your state and so for you to do anything less than that creates the disenfranchisement of certain people in the process and it certainly does not lend to a truly Equitable social eal program that we sold to the people of Illinois thoughts on that definition or if you just want to share your definition uh either way well very honestly I’m not quite sure what she said um oh was my audio bad or no no no no was perfectly fine sorry I thought I mess up the sh it was kind of a political speak to me I mean the the she she started off with the concept that we’re trying to make um to trying to make this industry which is regulated you know um a catalyst if you will my words for um for promotion of social equity and social justice and if we’re going to do that I think she said we truly have to make it available to them and I think implicit in what that was saying she was saying was that that I don’t think she was suggesting the system is rigged I think she might be suggesting that looking and I don’t know when that’s from but looking back on the system and back on how it relate how it rolled out with all of its faults it didn’t achieve its goals and probably more work needs to be done to to to make sure that the that the that the groups that were thought about when the Act was put together not stated in the ACT there’s nothing in the act that goes and talks about certain certain um parts of society other than disproportionately impacted and it’s defined in such a way that you know if I was stupid enough to get busted by weed and my father was still alive as as wealthy as he might have been he would have he would have qualified as a as a disproportionately impacted father because his son got busted and he was a veteran so so I think her point was it didn’t work it didn’t reach the people that we wanted it to reach it in in as many cases as we wanted it to go to to reach yeah yeah I I’ll just add my two cents really quick and I might have just didn’t quite because it was kind of seems like to me she was more focused on the the criminal justice aspect of it and I be wrong on that um which I totally agree with her uh from my perspective as it specifically relates to uh the legal cannabis Market when it’s talking about social Equity I think it’s talking about a certain degree of fairness I looked at the medical when I first decided I wanted to kind of get in this Pro in this industry I looked at the only Bill that was available at the time which was the the medical bill and it’s like the cost the barrier of the entry was like maybe like a million plus dollars liquid and a bunch of other like that’s not fair that’s not Equitable and I think the way they structured the new bill where folks like me could have an opportunity to participate in the market there was no barrier no Financial barrier that would prohibit me at least in the law no Express one yeah no Express right um and I think that’s the in my estimation that is the the heart of that Equitable component they want to make sure that folks who were uh primarily impacted by these um injust laws had an opportunity to participate in the market that has held us back uh for so many years and decades right so that’s that’s my view of of equity social Equity yeah well thank you both and if I could and I want to just because I don’t want to close I’d be happy to give you the P the last word my take on the clip was that that we can’t claim to address the War on Drugs unless we end that War on Drugs because like what are we going to do for the future victims just issue another limited number of licenses yeah right you know like if we’re trying to actually address the cycle why not in the cycle you know um so but again I know that’s a bigger conversation so um well hey Scott ree I want to thank you both not only for sitting down with me but for reaching out to me um because you know you could have easily just seen that video and been like [ __ ] him that’s not a nuanced View and what the hell what the hell was he you know but instead you chose to reach out to me let me know what you thought about it and then I was like you want to come on cuz I’m an open book I’m willing to talk about it play it go through it and you were like absolutely so I just want to thank you both for being willing to to do this with me so well I want to thank you I want to clarify something I said when I said it be stupid enough to get busted I recognize as a white guy I’m not targeted so recognizing that privilege I’d have to be pretty stupid as a white guy to somehow get to somehow get busted because I’m not targeted uh a lot of people got busted who who just were targeted and got busted yeah so yeah I’ll say this this point first of all thank you uh for giving us an opportunity to to have this conversation and and engage in reasonable dialogue I can tell you as it relates to criminal justice and what we’re trying to do I wanted to to secure a license and I specifically chose a craft grow I didn’t want to do retail because all I doing is selling I wanted to get an opportun uh get in a space where we can hire people of color to grow process manufacture and sell to dispensaries legally I think when you provide these opportunities I’m less inclined to want to participate in an illicit Market that I can run the risk of putting myself and my family in Jeopardy right and like on paper I can tell you what we look like on paper I can’t tell you the reality but on paper if everything goes perfect and you do all the things you’re supposed to do and you sell all your products in Golden day you’re you’re talking about a $40 million in the middle of the hood if you will all right in the middle of a black I hate saying hood like in the middle of a black and brown Community where I can tell you firsthand I come from a a disproportionately impacted Community I see it now my mother still lives in these communities and I go back and I see and I often wonder myself why can’t I offer opportunities where opportunities don’t otherwise exist and this was an industry where I saw was nent enough where we can get in and really have an impact on our community and the thing that just pisses me off and drives me nuts when we’re finally in a position to provide this opportunity many folks in black and brown communities they don’t have a lot of access to disposable incomes which means you have to find ways to provide for your family I’m not going to talk about whether it’s good or bad but I know we have sometimes you got to do what you have to do well how many companies that’s generating has the potential to generate $40 million of standing those businesses up in black and brown communities right right so when when we have an opportunity to do that and it it just frustrates the hell out of me when the rules change we’ve done all the things that we needed to do to stand up and now the rules change and everyone wants to say oh let’s just try to do things fairly and freely like that doesn’t provide an opportunity for a company with this kind of potential to be in the middle of a black and brown C to hire folks and not only with cannabis jobs transferable skills right a cannabis craft grow company uses a accountants and attorneys and every other thing that any other business use that black and brown folks rarely I don’t say ever but of course many don’t have an opportunity to participate in a high tech business it’s a high tech business Tech business and they’re transferable skills right so it’s frustrating for me and I know why I’m in it I know the reason I got into it and I’m I’m willing to bet most of the folks um of color who got into it is in it for the very same reason we see the challenges we see the pain that’s that’s happening and we see yes it’s unfair and we have an opportunity to B add some balance some balance and when when things threaten that it it really frustrates me so thank you for having giving us the opportunity to talk about these things and and um express some of our views as it relates to to him yeah and I forgot to ask the quick and easiest fun question how long have you both been smoking weed you feel comfortable answering that question first of all sure um I can’t smoke anymore it kills my lungs you know I got borderline C uh COPD but almost every day in college for sure hell yeah Scott yeah I I I started um in college and and uh I had a pause and then uh back at it and I got back in into a really at the time in college I didn’t know [ __ ] about weed so I was just smok whatever came across the deck des and um as I educated myself and learned more about the product um my consumption increased because I know uh different strains and different properties and different Turpin and different effects and and you can really you can cultivate the plant in a way that can make you feel the way you want to feel and once I kind of learned that uh I I I love it s yeah my my my career started and ended at least smoking wise with good old Champagne County ditch weed so hell yeah champagne represent sweet cool nice to end the podcast on a laugh I want to thank you both again for spending your time with me this afternoon and folks uh check out the show notes to get connected with Scott and Rees uh thank you Scott Reese take care everybody bye thank
The Cole Memo 
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