The Cole Memo

In this episode, Rachel and Chris Berry from the Illinois Hemp Growers Association respond to the latest call to ban an open, competitive, and federally legal cannabis market in the state of Illinois.

• Watch the episode on Patreon here
• Watch the episode on Youtube here
• Stream the episode on Soundcloud here
• Stream the episode on Spotify here
• Stream the episode on Apple Podcast here
• Stream the episode on X here

Links mentioned during show

• IllinoisHGA.com
• Bill that was discussed
• Episode 81 with Illinois Hemp Growers Association
• Press Conference that we mentioned 
• Article that Chris mentioned
• Federal article we mentioned at end
• Some information on Roger Adams

The auto-generated transcript is available below.

hello and welcome you’re listening to the Cole memo I’m your host Cole Preston every episode is released in audio video and transcript format to find the transcript audio or video version of any episode please refer to the description of the episode that you’re listening to now within that description you can find a link that will take you to our website which will display the transcript for this episode in the platforms where you can find this episode in audio or video formats if you’re unable to locate the episode description on whichever platform you’re listening from Simply take note of the episode number and visit the memo.com you can use our search function to find the corresponding episode and then you’ll be able to access the audio video and transcript version of that episode you might might also find any links that we reference during this episode so that you might be able to do your own research or connect with people like the Illinois HP growers association if you’re not listening to this episode of the co memo on patreon you’re listening to this episode a a little bit later than our patrons to become a patron go to the co memo.com patreon it only costs $3 a month you get access to our episodes as they release another great great way to support our show is at the co memo.com /s support our show is funded by listeners like you but one of the best ways to support our show is absolutely free subscribe to or follow the show leave a positive review from wherever you’re listening to us from favorite this episode give it a thumbs up leave a comment or post a review folks I am joined by several people today Phil welcome back to the Cole memo why don’t you say hi hello thanks for coming back on Phil I always en jooy uh when you join us Rachel Chris welcome back to the Cole memo how’s it going good to be here Cole thanks for having us back on absolutely absolutely and you can find the Illinois HP growers association at illino hga docomo of how we got to where we are today and feel free Chris Rachel and Phil because you’re you’re all I respect you all so much because you’re all so refined in cannabis policy and kind of the ongoings so please feel free to jump in if I miss anything I want to start in 2014 when the term hemp really became a legal term Industrial Hemp was legalized in 2014 but that term was expanded in 2018 when Congress dropped the industrial prefix completely revamped the definition of hemp to include the cannabis plant and I’m sure you all have heard this any part of the plant including the seeds and all derivatives extracts can cannabinoids isomers acid salts and salts of isomer whether growing or not within with a Delta 9 tetrah hydroc canabal concentration on a dry weight basis of no more than .3% so the the debate around hemp I would say started a few years ago and originally started as kind of like a CBD consumer protection act and it really hasn’t been much of anything that I think has been on our Radars until I would say maybe last fall is when it really heated up there was a debate on live television that ultimately inspired episode three of the co memo which featured a lot of stakeholders on both sides of this issue that debate uh like I said was very heated and has continued through to this legislative session recently there was a press conference from the Cannabis Business Association of Illinois which contained a proposal which they said would regulate hemp but really when you look into the the details of it it it would regulate hemp uh under the crta which is a highly limited system and the reason if you were wondering why I was displaying the coal memo earlier is because it really seems like that’s what this debate is around a lot of people say that the coal memo which is not just a reference to my is what created cannabis 2.0 or prohibition 2.0 which I think is we should just start calling it that because that’s exactly what this proposal seems to be um the features of cannabis 2.0 are highly regulated compliance focused limited licensed cannabis markets and for all those reasons hemp is seen as a direct challenge to that system because there are no license limitations uh I would say that’s the number one reason there’s no license limitations there’s no barrier to entry per se there’s not a regulatory Moe um yesterday there was a senate executive committee Hearing in which proponents and opponents of a ban on hemp spoke I feel like I’ve done a decent job of doing a highle overview but it’s possible that I missed some bases do you guys want to jump in any and before we get to the content of today’s show did I do good I think I did feel like you laid it out pretty well cool there’s a lot to this folks so I will just say that check out things like episode three and you know I mentioned the press conference earlier uh that happened within the last few weeks that press conference was related to the language that we’re going to be discussing today and we had uh Chris on specifically to recap that press conference and kind of respond line by line to what was said so I guess maybe that’ll springboard us into today’s conversation this conversation isn’t about that bill it is about that same language which was put into another bill tactic called gut and replace um Chris Rachel where where do we want to start today with this Senate executive committee hearing the last thing I’ll say is that I just produced a transcript on this folks so while we’re listening to this if you’d like to go through what we might be referring to the transcript is at the memo.com I’m displaying it right now it was pretty enlightening to watch that uh session too just to see like how legislators talk about this issue yeah you know see it seems like mostly they like just don’t know a lot and they know they don’t know a lot yeah I thought it was really painful to sit through that um uh Committee hearing um at times it was insulting so um and I agree that it it was very evident at times that not quite sure what they’re talking about I think you did a good job Cole taking that little snip that when you just showed from your website where they open up to laughter um because leader lightford says I wasn’t aware that I had any opposition uh and you know they know the that the count of people signing in opposition uh witness slips in opposition was over 700 at that point so everyone in the room kind of Chuckles uh and then they passed the bill unanimously or they passed it out of committee unanimously yeah so they were they it was they were laughing at us not with us that’s for sure can we watch that moment really quick yeah yeah watch it proponents 682 opponents 11 no position leader lightford on your bill I didn’t know I had any opponents well let me share with you ler so out of context looks like an evil villain like I look I I there’s there are things that uh leader lightford has stood up for that that I have respect for her on so I want to be clear that today I’m not here to attack specifically leader light for um in any other context except for on this issue which she seems to be very misinformed on so so well and I would just say just because it popped into my head I remember going to that cannabis Town Hall that she had she like said during the thing that she has a real issue with people that she views as going around rules or circumventing rules or processes like like I imagine her head it’s like all these hemp people have taken advantage of the system and they’ve circumvented the pathway we’ve set up for you to become a licensed cannabis business and I I just feel like she’s got like something in her head about hemp people are rule Breakers what they’re selling is illegal and you know she kept saying that and I’m like well if it’s illegal why aren’t you going after him with law enforcement yeah I don’t know I just feel like she she’s very on this like these are rule Breakers what they’re doing is illegal and it’s like well then you shouldn’t really need to pass additional legislation to make that illegal right right which is one of the first few things she does say this would make I can look for it but it it would make the current operations illegal I can find that but uh yeah July first of 2024 selling hip derived THC products outside of a dispensary is illegal it’s one of the first few things she said but and then but during the thing she kept saying it’s illegal now right right and I just can’t I just can’t help but view that as her trying to like Color Him people as elicit doing bad things yeah yeah well I mean she definitely called them she insinuated that they were dishonest and definitely called them drug dealers uh hemp Growers drug dealers that were hiding behind a hemp license I think she said we can play that moment if we want to but Chris Rachel wanted to give you space I don’t know Chris you got anything to say about that yeah I’ve got plenty to say about it um I don’t know where to begin but I I yeah I think the pers it’s if you take the point of view that that is laid out in the legislation um that regardless of whatever wherever the cannabinoid came from if it contains the letters THC then it’s cannabis under that should be under crta or compassionate uh one of those two Frameworks um and so looking at it that way sure yes uh from that perspective as someone who’s um who believes that that’s the correct way to regulate canabo as though like they’re all schedule one substances which is is another discussion you know with the the rescheduling underway it doesn’t seem like any of this hardly any of the the framework of crta is relevant anymore um and that that should be updated we shouldn’t be bringing more things under under that umbrella but if you’re looking at it as hey the crta is the way forward um then yeah it if these definitions and this bill were to go into effect then what she’s saying is true it is all illegal but you’re you’re absolutely right Phil it’s like you’re you’re kind of putting the cart before the horse uh you’re you’re trying to say that it is and and maybe you could come after people um if it was banned at the state level um maybe you could but right now it’s a it’s a federal thing right and we’re not seeing any enforcement on the federal level all we see is warning letters from the FDA for the most egregious of offenses um and other than that I you see an outstanding safety record um across the board with all these products so uh it it it’s very clear that it’s it’s part of just an expansion of of crta and the authority of the State uh to to to create tax revenue from from Cannabis and hemp yeah and Phil I thought you might like this one specifically I was told earlier today that you know perhaps maybe they they’ve come up with this new tactic because of what has worked in the past so for example you know we’re constantly talking about is it legal because there are so many different ways in which people continue to be criminalized memo.com isit legal for examples um they’re almost using the same approach they used to Legal cannabis back then were’re like no no no it’s legal you just have to have a license to participate in it it’s like okay how do I get a license well you can go [ __ ] yourself that’s that’s how well and during and during that hearing lightford was saying um she was like yeah if you want to sell cannabis you just have to get a cannabis license right like it’s like that’s like that’s as easy as it is to get a hemp license MH yeah and they specifically used how easy it is to set up shop as as almost like a bad thing I find that this part of it so interesting and it it takes me back to that press conference we watched which again folks we’ll have that listed in the podcast description it’s 81 somebody asked was the problem that we legalized it right because all of their complaints are a result of the legislation right so like they’re like well the taxes are too high the licensing fees cost too much and you know it’s just so hard to make any money in this in this industry and it’s like but but meanwhile these hemp people they can just do whatever they want it’s like so you’re complaining about the Cannabis regulation and Tax Act but you refuse to like acknowledge you get what I’m saying it’s almost I know you guys had said what was it it’s uh sunk cost fallacy I think it’s a little bit of Stockholm syndrome yeah just gonna say that some cost fallacy because I think we’ve talked about that before yeah but I wanted to just add that I think it’s a little bit of Stockholm syndrome they’re like standing up for the system that abused them yes because they want everyone else to now be abused by it yeah so yeah well I know we’ve we’ve kind of gone all over the place Chris and Rachel was there anything specific spefic with the legislation or anything that was specifically called out in the Senate executive committee that you wanted to to start with today um yeah I mean there’s a couple of things that you reminded me of as we were kind of as you were kind of going through that um but uh I mean if so anyway let me explain kind of what I did and then we can kind of talk about yeah any bit of that that you find interesting so I I did go through to get into a little bit more detail about like the actual mechanics of the what’s happening here at the legislative level um an amendment was filed amendment number two Senate amendment number two was filed to um House Bill 4293 and that was the 22nd and now today just a short time ago they have filed amendment number three um so I’ve I’ve gone earlier today right before they dro the third amendment of course I decided all right I’ll sit down and go through the entire second amendment uh and so I’ve gone through all of that and now with the third one compared it to the third one and the only significant change I can see in the third one is they created a a carve out for beverage sellers so um that specifically is really the only difference um it says uh any uh until January 20 2025 any beverage derived from hemp may be offered for sale or sold by a person licensed under the liquor control act as a retailer or manufacturer that has retail privileges whose total sales of alcohol equal 90% or more of total sales or an industrial hemp processor or hemp consumer a product processor who also holds retail privileges as a manufacturer as provided Under The Liquor Control Act um so basically it just it’s just giving them enough time to liquidate any beverages that they have um provided that they only contain up to 10 milligrams um per individual container of uh you know per can essentially so if you’re selling if you have 10,000 cans of uh 15 milligram beverages on your shelf those you’re still kind of up a creek like you can’t it’s it would be illegal to sell that if this goes into effect so it that’s why it says at the beginning of the section notwithstanding so it it you’re it’s creating a very Niche carve out I think because of some of the testimony from um uh who was what was his name the yeah the craft Brewers Guild I can find his name but right so they they did create a very Niche card out for the Brewers um but other than that it’s it’s the only changes to the third amendment from the second are some clarifications like they add in a couple of words here and there to make sure that uh you know like the phrase not intended for human or animal consumption is fixed in some places um they add in the word manufacturer into like some of the list of things that you can’t do um or prohib prohibitions in in section 10 like uh they added the word manufacture into a list of all these other things like sell or distribute etc etc so just minor changes like that for the third amendment uh and so going through the Second Amendment I mean I think I don’t know how much we talked about this same type of thing that they’re doing you know this is I think you and I and Phil Cole have been on this topic quite a bit and um they they the first things first with every as with every bill they throw out a bunch of definitions they’re just straight out of wherever they’re just straight up arbitrary so that they try to create what this bill does is create the phrase artificially derived canabo so it’s it is whatever they want it to mean um but my comeback to that is everything all derivatives of hemp are legal under the 2018 farm bill so like they’re kind of it it’s like they’re kind of saying well the Delta 9 that’s naturally derived from hemp is okay but if you took your CBD and then converted it to Delta 9 now it’s no good um and you like for me that’s like a well you know you can you can milk the cow but you can’t kill the cow and and cut it into staks and render the Tallow out of it and use the fat from the cow that way you can only take the cream from the cow you can’t take the fat you know what I mean like that’s basically the kind of rule making or like language that they’re using here to to to create these sort of definitions that then that the then the legislation goes to leverage against people uh and and product categories and things like that so they create the artificially derived canabo definition um they also create they also Define what a can abono is and isn’t so it they they only are talking about naturally derived things and then they give a list um and and the list on that is like they they say it’s it’s up the department of a to um to to choose what is and is not intoxicating and so they just give a short list of you know CBD CBC CBT CBN and it’s like I my argument against that is like uh it’s first of all it’s really vague um it’s totally arbitrary what uh what is and what isn’t hemp uh compared to the farm bill it’s it’s all hemp so if you’re saying CBD is good and some of these other th the molecules that contain the letters THC are not good and that they’re intoxicating like I think it could easily be argued that the list of non- intoxicating compounds here could be intoxicating and I think I mentioned this before on the show like if you take enough CBD or CBN especially you will get drowsy so like I would not I would not recommend that you operate heavy machinery on like more than 50 milligrams of CBD or something like that you know probably not probably not the best idea especially not CBN um and they make like you know sleep aid type nighttime type gummies and medications that are I would definitely avoid uh if you were you know going to work that day uh and under this list that’s fine they’re not they’re supposedly not intoxicating so like it’s not really that it’s intoxicating or has some psychoactive effect is that specifically THC they want to have a monopoly on anything that contains the letter THC so that that’s why they create this definition of what they’re defining as a hemp canono which is just the ones that they’re not interested in selling yeah and I like I thought it was interesting that it seems I could be a little wrong on this but it seems to make the variance that we’ve talked about in the past about using hemp in your um products and dispensaries it makes that permanent so that they don’t have to keep issuing a variance so so it’s just part of the law now and and it’s not called hemp even if it has hemp in it you you call it cannabis by the law at least that’s that’s what I saw it said so even if it is hemp dve you don’t you not it’s legally it’s cannabis and only cannabis can be sold in dispensaries I think is what the law says that’s exactly right yeah so it’s funny that you brought that up because like yes as soon as the the cannabis license e takes possession of it it is now cannabis right it’s no longer him so right so then it’s applicable to all the same taxes and everything else um but also now that section becomes incredibly confusing because of this bill because now they’re saying because that policy was written when anyone could be a hemp processor or whatever or hemp farmer or whatever now it’s like the only people that can actually deal with hemp can abono are already crta people so what like who is this really for anymore I don’t know a single person who might Ben benefit from this like I just feel like it’s it’s it’s just an indicator um that they didn’t really do like extensive stakeholder engagement here um like from the hemp industry at least like because they kind of legislated themselves into a corner with this like they I I think is definitely on a list somebody’s wants or wish list somewhere and now they’re just saying like this is how it’s going to work but if we try and I think I discussed this last time it’s like some of these things that they that they write it just doesn’t when you when you follow them mechanically or logically like it just doesn’t go anywhere and this is one of those things so I asked that over and over like who is this for anymore right well that’s what an individual said to me earlier today it’s like they’re able to say no we’re not Banning hemp we’re regulating it but then you get lost in what the regulation means so then you’re like okay they’re not the bad guy they don’t believe in prohibition they just want to regulate it but what they don’t tell you is that like only those State ordained individuals get it and I I don’t mean to return too much back to this point but I just have to like you have to make this point I’ve got a can right in front of me a lot of this I I said at the stop the top of the show that it’s limited licenses that that this is really about the way that they say that without saying limited licenses is that this is a direct competitor to social Equity because mind you we baked limited Licensing in to social Equity so I you know social Equity is Prim go ahead or they’ll often say it’s a threat to our social Equity licenses and I always just think well I know there’s cops among those social Equity lienes I know there’s former Chicago Alderman among those social Equity lienes I know there’s massively successful restaurant tours white guys in Chicago that are you know it’s like who who exactly are these social Equity lies that we like bending over backwards to screw over all these small businesses for and and meanwhile I have a drink in front of me that’s made by a social Equity licensee hemp derived cannabis they are licensed under the crta they also sell their hemp derived products and they’re not complaining very tasty drink too that very beverage would not be allowed under this bill exactly no you’re right the milligram caps are much lower than what you’ve got there y you’d have to drink five cans to have the same effect right that’s River right mhm so River Bluff they the reason they even started the hemp business was because they didn’t have financing to get their cannabis business off the ground and it was much cheaper and easier to start their hemp business and start selling products that way so they at least had money coming in and then they could get their cannabis operations off the ground it’s like maybe Illinois should look at that consider the problems they’ve made for people and try to get these two things to be like on the same page yeah I just think it’s it’s not a coincidence that big you know you you put social Equity is like your your shooting dummies you know the people in the front lines like oh these are the people like you said that are being directly threatened or directly affected but really it’s big cannabis that has a vested interest in making sure that you know these regulatory modes remain a feature yeah and these um these amendments definitely sort of hide that social Equity component that was kind of at the Forefront from the last um time we discussed legislation like this like if you look through the language of this bill there is not much in the way of social Equity like it’s social Equity carve outs from hemp what it does is just transfer hemp to crta which already has social Equity carve outs right so that that’s it’s not like some of the other versions that that we talked about that had um like a specific social Equity hemp regulatory fund uh and like a certain portion of carve outs from hemp taxes to go to that fund and fund social equity and things like that like there’s none of that in this one right it we don’t need that though because we’ve got the most Equity Centric program in the nation yeah exactly so uh all I’m the point I’m trying to make is uh of course hemp is you know as pretty much as free and broadly accessible as you can get um and um what you know what previous bills had done is again totally like Miss the forest for the trees and and think that a social Equity component’s necessary in the hemp industry um and with this one at least they they haven’t done that same thing where they kind of carved out a special fund and a special program and and a special mandate where they can hire their friends who own Contracting companies to fulfill the requirements of the mandates that they wrote for themselves um but it it it doesn’t really have to it just this one’s a lot more cut and dry uh it it um one uh basically what it does is like you know everyone’s talking about how it’s it’s G to kill the hemp industry and and one of the key ways and it was good in the in the press or in the the Senate hearing yesterday that um the the person who gave the the second testimony it was um Mel fresh his last name um he mentioned that the the way that they Define intermediate products in the bill um is kind of impossible uh and it’s true um and we we may have talked about this before but they um what they’re saying is even the intermediate products can’t have 0.3 more than 0.3 THC um and and that’s total so when you do crude extraction you basically 7x all the cannabinoids in your product like you’re removing the plant matter you’re increasing the if you go from say like your typical biomass input is like 8% and then it it’s right around that 3% threshold is 8% cbd3 THC you run it through crude exraction and now you’re looking at something that’s like 55% CBD and and probably around you know 2% THC and so just that that initial step um that kind of enables a lot of the full spectrum hemp products and everything else that’s in Industry this this bill does make that not allowed uh it makes possession of that not legal for anyone other than um someone licensed under the crta uh and so you a lot of the points that um leader lightford was making in that um hearing yesterday uh about how if you if you want to sell the legal hemp if you want to sell the CBD etc etc you can do that you just can’t sell the intoxicating stuff but with with a definition like that it just it doesn’t actually like me logically mechanically work that way um and it’s not just that um using the example that they have here of like what what uh consumer CBD product is defined as underneath this bill um they also put a half a milligram per serving or individual product unit and a 2 milligram per package uh uh cap on it for um THC so you know if we take which essentially kills smokable CBD flour uh because at. 3% THC um you know a typical uh 3500 milligram package or 3.5 gram e of CBD flour is going to have roughly a 100 milligrams of THC in it and still be compliant so this is roughly 50 times times less is allowed so if you could have a a 50th of an eighth that’s that’s what’s allowed uh as far as milligram caps for smokable CBD flow so I don’t know what that is like a 50th of 3.5 grams it’s it’s nothing it’s like a Crome but like that eighth of CBD flow when you smoke it is not getting you high might hear like a 100 milligrams of THC and be thinking like Edibles like oh that’s enough to get like you couldn’t even really try to make like weed butter out of that to get yourself High you’d get CBD butter yeah yeah and and also that limit is was defined as non- intoxicating by the farm bill it was like it was like that’s where they decided and we could get into how that’s completely arbitrary and the three limit is developed by a scientist who said it just fit my data it wasn’t necessarily based on like human physiology as far as like tolerance for what does and does not get you high um and and so even under that arbitrary standard which is most people I think agree is probably too low uh yeah you’re you’re going 50 times more strict than that which is just uh that that’s a perfect illustration of kind of what the position of this bill is with its regard to like the current hemp uh product space gotta uh and then finally yes in that same definition they they do a ratio they they talk about the ratio um uh that the total hemp can avonoid concentration has to be 25 times greater than the total THC concentration and so most hemp varieties when you grow them they typically Express CBD to THC in a 20 to1 ratio and if you’re really lucky like 22 23 to1 ratio and so this is again requiring a 25 to1 ratio which it it’s nearly impossible to meet so they they offer like it’s like a trifecta of nearly impossible or just outright impossible requirements for for hemp CBD products and this is this is I’m talking this is on page two of the bill is one is is all that we’ve gone through so far with everything all the comments that I’ve made here and it it most of most of the action of this bill happens within the first 21 Pages um after that it kind of goes into amending different uh other uh codes that um are affected by it but like the real meat and potatoes of this is all in the first 20 some pages yeaha yeah this is um and I we did this markup today and I we shared it somewhat widely with our uh with our uh connections um and so anybody who’s interested in reading this I’m happy to share it it’s you know this is the hopefully this is the last couple of days of this session and if this can help uh give anyone ammunition to contact their reps or or any Representatives out there that are listening or watching um yeah feel free to to check this out is there’s I’ve got comments up and down the entire thing um just just as detailed as what I’ve shared so far yeah uh just heard some thunder outside it’s storming here in Central Illinois um so I’m curious I list I actually printed out the list of proponents and opponents um on my article that I produced which once again folks if you want to read it it’s in the episode description I think it’s notable to mention once again at least at the time of the writing that there were 32 proponents 773 opponents and of the 32 proponents I I’ll pull it up real quick but I saw a large number of cannabis Regulators Aaron Johnson RC Emily Spangler from the Department of Public Health which you know I’m actually not sure if she’s in cannabis legislation but David Lakeman for sure is uh you’ve got people from Chicago normal that are proponents of this bill I saw James and Sandy champion who are actually members of the medical cannabis Advisory Board and then of course you know you have people that actually debated on my show as proponents of a ban on uh Delta a so people like achil Parnell Kareem kinat my question is I just love seeing Chicago normal on that list if you ever wanted to wonder if they’re really for cannabis reform they’re not they’re a cannabis Business Association uh reminds me of an old article that Mike fuche did did on them back in the day kind of pretty much asked that question are you a Business Association are you fighting for Consumer uh Provisions like normal typically does and I can’t remember how they answered that but um I my question again thank you Phil uh for mentioning that because I do think it’s important to add that but my question for you the hemp growers association I mean I’m pretty sure you have you probably have a a relationship with uh David Lakeman but you know so let’s get the the Cannabis Regulators out of the way so obviously like Aaron Johnson’s on there because she wants her like she doesn’t want this to compete with her job type thing that’s my hypothesis I don’t know I could be wrong um but like somebody like David Lakeman who like when I’ve had on the show I couldn’t get him to impart any opinions you know Regulators always say they can’t impart opinions because they’re regulators and they have to remain neutral meanwhile they’re listed as proponents on this bill um so like what does that bode well I guess is my question sorry that took a long time to build up to that or is do you get what I’m asking yeah I think it’s frustrating um to work closely with the the department of a um over the last couple years um even more so that we recommended rules that would help solve some of these issues uh through the process of Illinois rules not creating new legislation um we did this last year in March we submitted it um and even before then we’ve had conversations you know talking about how can we um strengthen our regulation for hemp in the state and to see that our suggestions our recommendations were not taken into consideration at all and now speed up to today and we’re having these problems where uh Senator lightford is saying we’re showing up at the 11th hour trying to make changes ABS that is absolutely not true um and it makes me just wonder you know where does David Lakeman stand in all of this like you said he he tries to be impartial and um he’s he tries to stay pleasant but you know here we are uh like you said he he’s an opposition or he’s a not an opposition he’s um a proponent of this and that is not staying impartial at all um and yeah why why did you not take the into consideration the recommendations of the hemp industry last year when we could have gotten this into our our hemp rules yeah I’m I’m glad you brought up David uh I think if if you listen and and Rachel you made some really good points thank you um I think if you listen to some of the things that he said and Cole you you did the transcript you’ve got the video um he says we’ve always we’ve always he said two things that I thought were really interesting um he’s like we’ve always been striving to work with the legislative body um in whatever capacity that they they need us so essentially they’re you know they’re they’re being proponents and and their efforts to help craft this in in whatever capacity that they did maybe maybe what they did was advise on how to amend the industrial hemp act um which is near the end of this uh Amendment it’s near the bottom um he so essentially what he’s saying is like we did this because the legislative body wanted us to do this uh and then the thing that I found really interesting um which kind of came up through some questioning um during the hearing was um they they talked about like wh why is it like kind of what Phil was saying earlier like what changes here like wasn’t it wasn’t it a USDA rule that let us do this like wasn’t it the federal government that let us do this and David kind of comes out and says yes um until this point we’ve always everything that’s hemp has been like dictated by the USDA and and that’s what we always heard when we asked them for those rule changes that Rachel was mentioning um was oh we wish we could be a little bit more flexible and and a little bit more you know um uh Forward Thinking and and Progressive and and those types of things and kind of we wish we could but the USDA is just holding us back they say we can’t do this we can’t do that uh and so that’s also seems to have sort of flipped from being uh beholden to the USDA to now we’re beholden to um the legislative body in in Illinois um and and now you have the idoa going behind state level changes like the these are very drastic departures from from federal policy uh at the state level that the department of a is behind um when you know 15 months ago when we were suggesting uh some pretty common sense and extremely simple uh solutions to these very same issues we’re talking about here um their hands were tied by the SDA and they they couldn’t do anything about it um and so we did we did recommend some some changes to the law some some definitions be added and that’s really all that’s needed here the rest is the ru making thing so to have the department of a throw their throw their support behind something that is basically just like a massive expansion of their power um is I I’m not sure why he came out and said like this represents an end point to the the to the debate over like the safety of of hemp hemp products um and it’s not an end point this is you’re opening up a big can of worms here uh it’s going to be a a much more difficult job for the Department to actually administer and enforce a lot of what this bill requires and maybe that’s what they’re looking for like you said the the croo is kind of looking for the same thing I think it’s not it’s not that hemp is uh threatening her job it’s that they’re looking to bring it under their umbrella uh to to expand the the scope of their their operation uh and to to expand the revenue um that I think they hope to they hope to extract off of this um and I think that’s that’s why you have that support from the Department of a is that they see it as as a way to increase revenue for the state tax revenue um and the problem is they what they’re doing with this bill is they’re restricting the products that are allowed and they’re restricting the channels in which you can distribute those products so you end up with a overall restriction on the market decrease in Access so like they’re what they’re doing is estimating how much money they can get out of taxing hemp but then they’re essentially shutting it down at the same time so it’s like you created this huge infrastructure that’s going to be expensive uh and also you’ve you’ve probably eliminated 75 to 80 85 95% of the market by restricting Supply and distribution I don’t know also I just also thought it was so disingenuous for Aaron Johnson and I’ve heard her say this like multiple times like over her time there that she’ll be like we have the most diverse cannabis Market in the country and like Cole and I we always talk about well how much money are those people making because it’s certainly not proportional to their racial representation yeah like like maybe you know let’s say it’s 50% of the licenses or with black owners these days they’re still getting like three or four per of the profits yeah no doubt and you know I couldn’t I don’t think I could put it much more much shorter than this I was displaying David lakeman’s own words just a moment ago the Department’s goals and admin the administration’s goals in the administration of this program are to emulate our mission on the Cannabis side and then here’s our buzzwords to ensure Equitable that’s limited license well regulated kind of like doubling down on limited licenses and safe just a buzzword to make people happy because as and part of me just wonders if these people have like post-government job aspirations like not to totally impune their motives but we’ve seen with other people like that guy Jeff Cox who is at idph or even toy Hutchinson the first crew you know they putts around in this job for a little bit they don’t really do much and then they move off and they work for pts or they move off and they get a job with the marijuana policy project who apparently loves to set up these limited license markets in states that they work on legislation in yeah yeah I mean on one hand you can’t blame them because it’s it’s legal um and they can probably effectively double their salary if they make the jump from government to private um it’s I I don’t think that that’s what David lakeman’s looking for I think he is genuinely passionate about government work and that he he does have a good understanding of um cannabis and regulation in general um but that I think that it um he’s been a big supporter of like the canra side of things like the you know hyper regulation is what I like to call it um and it’s all based around the schedule one thing it’s like we got to get this schedule one thing out of our heads it’s going away there’s no it makes no sense to treat this like schedule one anymore uh and that’s that’s it’s like we’re at this critical juncture where it’s like we’re we’re being held down by a lot of baggage uh and and we just got to let it go we gota we got to make changes if you want to bring this under crta you got to overhaul crta too yeah it’s like residual stigma it’s like during that hearing when she when lightford brought up like oh 11% of high school kids have tried delta8 and no parent wants to get this call that their kids in the hospital it’s like well why are you taking them to the hospital in the first place forcing them to the they got a little we I mean I’m sure it’s a liability and insurance thing but like I I just feel like that’s like a bigger picture of like just how stigmatized this stuff is it’s like any idiot knows your you know some kid got a little weed just sit him on the couch and tell him it’s going to be okay put on a cartoon it seems like they give him popsicles most of the time when they wind up in the hospital so yeah yeah I’ll have to try to find maybe we can look at that picture just for a little laugh at the end but Phil what’s funny is you know that same study they referenced in that study I can up uh just wanted to mention it for our listeners here they found that 29% of 12th graders reported cannabis use in the last year there’s other numbers in there but if they’re wanting to use the numbers of 12th graders which is the number they used which was 11% 30% have tried cannabis so more have tried cannabis supposedly than Delta a which of course we all know is the same thing but just saying if you want to reference studies that’s a important part you of the study of course they referenc Jennifer Bash as well our great friend Jennifer Bash Jennifer bash’s name popped up uh again recently uh in another area we don’t we don’t have to talk about that right now but Jennifer Bash of course they referenced her study um during this hearing so found that interesting which is not validated not validated and you know as you pointed out got to give credit to you because I W I didn’t realize this uh yeah she’s on the board of advisers for Cresco yra which is seemingly directly related to Cresco Labs established here in Illinois which is a pretty you know just something you should maybe omit or at least mention uh I wanted to play a moment out of the clip that has got a lot of attention online um there was a moment where they call hemp Farmers drug dealers you want to watch that moment let’s check it out explain what are we talking about because it’s disturbing to me if I’m going to put someone out of business when they’ve invested thousands and thousands of dollars that’s just like the drug dealer on the street selling drugs does that disturb you this is no different absolutely it does then that’s that’s who sent you the email is a drug dealer selling drugs behind a hemp license they’re not behind the cannabis license I visited I have visit F I actually had that farmer she was referencing on the show today so folks if you want to check out that episode The the she said I visited the farm um I had that person on the the show today what what did you guys think about that moment I thought the questioning right at the end where she was like I visited it’s like she was meaning to say that I visited them and they’re the farthest thing from what you would call a drug dealer on the street um but then she voted in favor of it anyway so it was it you know I noticed that there were no there were no NOS they were all y well I I do feel like voting something out of um like committee is not necessarily you know like you’re supporting it you’re just like okay yeah like you know maybe you don’t want to ruffle feathers with the Senate minority leader yeah uh yeah I could see that I but I think there was a lot of stakeholders of ours especially that were looking for this to die in committee so to to let it to let it get to that next stage and the next stage is it needs to go to the senate floor um and you know you have 59 senators in Illinois not just 13 in the committee so we’ll see how that plays out uh and I think they’re probably working on it they’ll be working on it through the weekend isn’t that right Rachel she’s been H just completely uh enveloped in this situation for the past couple of days and just doing the best I can to support her and doing what I can um you know digging into the language of the legislation to to back her up so um yeah sorry am I correct to understand just real quick that like this wouldn’t be going straight to the senate floor if it would not have been for this technique they used where they replaced the language in other words there would have had to be like three of these types of hearings yeah that’s why they called Rachel’s name for her to to show up because we were aware that this was happening but because they didn’t follow the process we didn’t have enough time to organize it I mean we’re we’re you know it’s several hour trip away um and when you find out about this at noon that this is happening uh and that you need to give testimony at 4M uh it’s nearly impossible uh and yeah so it’s already up for a vote uh and it probably shouldn’t be uh and you know and then they call you guys out for being last minute when they call that day yeah and and that goes back to what um you were saying about how she was very she’s always very much like you need to follow the rules follow the rules it’s like you’re using all the tricks in the book right now well and wasn’t this how they passed the crta originally like which is why no one really saw it for much before it was like presented and you know it’s like you had Kelly Cassidy and Heather stains out there for like a couple years before I’m being like we’re traveling to all these states that have legalized we’re checking out these markets were doing Town Halls were taking an input and then like a week before the thing was supposed to be presented no one had any idea what was going to be in it and uh it’s like it reminds me of this it’s kind of unrelated but is there a scene of like uh it’s a Kevin Hart movie with with the rock where they’re like uh secret agents or something and he’s like I just gotta ask you one question are you in or you out uh and he’s like in what what are you talking about he’s like nope no time for questions are you in or you out and like that’s how they present this legislation and it’s like well I I don’t know what I’m signing I don’t know what I’m doing it’s like well so I guess I’m out he’s like well nope sorry you’re actually you’re already in and that that’s did just it happens so often well which is why it’s so funny that she’s during that hearing being like Oh you guys have all these 11th Hour complaints with our Amendment here like what I’ve got I’ve got myself yeah I’ve got myself quoted on um criticizing the CBD safety act proposed by Bob Morgan from back in 2021 I’ve got articles quoting me saying uh questioning the ties of the marijuana industry to the regulation of CBD safety um so it’s not this is no 11th Hour thing 15 months ago we gave oral testimony we G we presented Solutions we we tried to handle this the way it’s supposed to be handled on the with the rul making process like it should never even get this far far but sorry Rachel go on no no you’re you’re good yeah this is uh it’s just interesting to see how the game is played and the reason I wanted to make sure to ask that is because you know you watch this hearing and it is interesting how I believe it’s Senator Castro runs this who I as I understand it is you know um seems to be Pro crta just based on what what seen her say in the past um you know due to she deals in uh cannabis issues just like light fur she’s one of those one of those people but to your point Ju Just to your point I know that in the past I believe you as an association have not voiced support for this measure but just to your point a lot of those people that were there I believe including Glenn mcelfresh have worked with uh representative Lesean Ford on a measure and you know I spoke to him just about a year ago so it’s not like everybody and that’s the way that it was presented in that hearing just this last week all all of this other legislation and complaints came together no this has been an active conversation um you know that’s that’s been occurring it’s why you’re a repeat feature on some of my shows you know because this keeps coming up it’s not going away so it’s a saga yeah I had an interview with um someone from Politico so hopefully we see see a uh an article next week but um yeah it’s a saga it’s been a multi-year saga uh and it it’s got recurring characters uh so it yeah it’s um it’s it’s you know it it’s been F fascinating to follow along with it uh I wish that we could get over it uh and like just like David Lakeman said like we need an endpoint uh and our position is that it’s it’s one that is Progressive uh not one that is weighed down by mistakes and some cost fallacy and and like you said even Stockholm syndrome like there’s a better way we may not have ever experienced a better way yet but there is a better way yeah you just have to listen to this to the industry listen to the stakeholders don’t make decisions in a vacuum and don’t let don’t let uh special interests dictate the legislative process it’s you know they’re not saying anything new here well and listen to Consumers like there’s far more consumers clearly want to buy people want to buy cannabis in a variety of places they want to get at breweries you know like clearly this crta Market that they’ve set up just doesn’t provide for everybody yeah yeah um didn’t we talk about that last time where it was the the location um someone yeah it was they remember they were talking about the Super Bowl uh and how those two guys just went down the road and bought some cupcakes or something and they were high for two days uh right and I was like that’s an an inspiring story about freedom and experimentation and that that should be their right as a citizen to do that if that’s what they want to do right and they tried to use it as an example of how dangerous hemp is but why did they go down to the the corner store to get it because it was a two-hour drive to the closest dispensary that’s why so like yeah the the like I was saying before this this extreme this this is going to kneecap the tax revenue they get because they’re restricting the distribution channels that they have so it it it just kind of it’s It’s like a dog chasing its tail it just doesn’t make any sense it’s just seems like a waste uh to to and they talked about the amount of work that they put into this uh it’s like and you know all that work was paid for by tax dollars right and some of the stuff that leader lightford was saying the on the floor there in the in the senate committee hearing uh that was just straight up word salad like when she tried to explain how the extraction process works or she’s tried to explain how uh you can uh isomerize uh Delta Delta 8 or you know any of that the the creation of the oil and all that like it was just straight up word salad and I think she tried to talk about like individual tolerances too but she didn’t say tolerance she said uh she said something aside from tolerance um but you got into a discussion about how that might affect you or like what intoxicating what is intoxicating uh just briefly there and it was just like it was like uh just it just it just shows that like any appeal to Authority that you heard where you know like she’s saying like it’s do does a drug dealer disturb you you know a drug a drug dealer on the street you know what disturbs me about that situation is that there’s no safer distribution system that people have access to for the substances they want to consume right like that’s what’s disturbing is that the the the the danger and the violence and all the stuff that’s associated with drug crime it’s um it’s it’s created that way because we don’t we don’t give them a pathway and then with this they talk about giving a pathway and the pathway is so narrow like you guys have harped on the the limited license thing like it’s not really a pathway it’s it it it just like the pathway to citizenship right it will take years and it’s backed up uh and they can shut it down at any time and it just an absolute disaster uh for anyone who’s trying to you know immigrate into this country so if that’s the kind of model that we’re doing when they talk about pathway I feel like that’s the type of pathway they’re creating is one that is just backed up years long backlog and and Incredibly expensive and by the time you get approved maybe you’re dead you know like it it it might be that long yeah I just you know I the reason I get so frustrated with this issue if if like I always like to try to address this when we talk about this like it just seems like it’s the first step towards the end goal and you know I might even be taking that a little bit away from Rod kite’s speech that that that I shared so if you want to check that out folks go to the cool memo.com search up rodite um but like we’ve descheduled part of the cannabis plants the cannabis plant if you look at any Advocates Instagram right now somebody’s made a post complaining about the fact that we’re only rescheduling cannabis and it’s going to be in schedule three with anabolic steroids and everything else and what we should do is deschedule cannabis and it’s like we’ve [ __ ] started like let’s take it past the line and people refus to and they didn’t I hate it when people talk down on hemp it’s it’s a trigger for me Phil knows that um because it’s like it’s the first step you know it it and it makes me question if descheduling was a thing because notice no cannabis mostly cannabis companies are applauding the move to schedule 3 because of the 280e relief you you you only hear Advocates taking the stand saying but it doesn’t address criminalization which is what Joe Biden said and that’s his campaign promise and if you’re not descheduling then you’re not doing that that no yeah I think it’s interesting how there hasn’t hasn’t really been a lot of vocal cannabis companies on that it makes you wonder if if yeah they’re just truly if they think it should be treated like a scheduled drug you know they do it’s safe but it’s not that safe right they’re counting on that stigma to stay here for like another 10 or 20 years straight up straight up well I want to be mindful our time because I know Phil you got to run here soon um but I guess just to to close can we briefly address because like one of the things that I’d written online is like somebody a lot of people have been asking isn’t this a federal issue isn’t this a federal issue and yeah it’s it’s been in the headlines is a federal issue lately and it’s like why why don’t we just let the feds work this out let’s work this out at the federal level it is a federal law after all right and so of course you know we’ve got our friend from Illinois that is is her thoughts about a lot of different things you know a lot of different things uh but she she doesn’t like hemp can you give us some I know we talked about Illinois and maybe you’ve kind of been like in the forest you know not looking at the federal level but do do you have any thoughts before we go on what’s going on at the federal level yeah it it just seems like um uh the hemp the hemp portion of the farm bill just got lumped in with a bunch of other policies um it didn’t really get a fair chance to even be heard um separately from other issues it didn’t get it didn’t get time to be heard um from what I gather from the the hemp industry across the country you know are we disheartened by this absolutely um but it’s not it’s not over yet you know there’s still a lot of time um and it seems like there’s a a lot of General opposition to this version of the farm bill in general um and there’s another version still coming out so um is it disappointing to see that happen in our coming out of our state uh absolutely um but I know for a matter of fact that we have some folks in the state who are working um to directly who are her constituents um who are working you know at that level um to come back with some information for her um to share you know as far and wide as we can um and I’m sure it’ll make its way go to yeah I’m really bothered by the fact that they are specifically calling out seeds in the uh legislation yeah yeah it all of it is just it’s that title was really funny on that article that you pulled up yeah know it’s ridiculous ridiculous yeah and you know there’s been so much effort you know this has been a multi-year effort just like here in the states it’s been a multi-year effort at a federal level um the hemp industry from across the country getting together with representatives to make sure that their voices and their their concerns and their suggestions are heard when it comes down to you know getting on the wire um so yeah like I said everyone’s pretty disappointed by this but we’re not um by any means do we feel like this is the end and um we’re defeated there’s still work to do and opportunity yeah yeah well said well well uh you know I only i Phil I wanted to give you space did we I know you and I both looked at this we watched this hearing as it was happening and such um any anything that you thought of or saw that we didn’t touch on today I mean I think I mostly said what I thought sweet sweet just wanted to give you space I know I was doing a lot of steering today I wanted to make sure that we we stayed within our time frame I wanted to end the show with a fun fact you know I love I will just say I love thca and everything else which you know people we’ve talked about it in the past folks Google thca you can learn all about it it’s it’s the reason why just to put it shortly you have to decarb your weed when you’re making brownies it’s the reason why when you smoke it you get high thca converts to THC our favorite thing and our fun fact for today is that in 1940 Roger Adams identified and C synthesized the CBD canab canabo through that he also uh synthesized CBD into THC and delta8 he was one of the first individuals to identify the chemical structure for THC even though credit is usually given to another person Adams was the department head of chemistry at the University of Illinois from 1926 to 1954 if you go to Champagne Illinois today there are buildings that have his name on the side of it um you can do some reading on him apparently he was targeted by like Henry anslinger because of his research you know um on the cannabis plant obviously that was around the time that that all that started to happen 1937 of course right so look into that folks I’ll put a link in the podcast description if you want to do a little research on that I just thought that was a little bit of a fun fact as you know as we exit cannabis has been synthesized in Illinois for many a years um it was first identified in Illinois so cheers to that yeah um I love that and uh another Illinois factoid the uh there’s a specific type of micor risal fungus that only um accumulates near the roots of cannabis plants that was also discovered at the University of Illinois I thinko yeah and and even to today uh the University of Illinois probably has the most um impactful hemp research program in the State uh and we haven’t mentioned it yet tonight but we have uh they have a huge event coming up in August um and yeah I’d really like to get the word out about that one and and I think turn that over to Rachel because she’s she’s spear hitting that effort and we were there last year and then this year it’s going to be much much bigger uh and last was already excellent um but what they’re doing down there um with the especially with the industrial side with the fiber and grain side um that the work of Dr Lee uh and his whole staff there Dana and Gabby and and everyone else um just an incredible group of people who literally they put on the best display of hemp plants in the whole so if you want to get down there and check that out it’s beautiful the the sites and the smells and the people are just incredible yeah and sometimes you might even see me out there yeah and Cole will be hiding in the plants and he’ll just pop out and like scare the [ __ ] out of you yep yeah um Cole we would love you to go um it’s gonna like Chris said it’s going to be big the national hemp Association is going to be there uh city of decar we’ve invited lots of Representatives who we’ve heard are going to be in attendance to um it’s not we’re not just talking about the amazing excellent uh research that Dr Lee is doing working with hemp and is sustainable um moving forward with sustainability and um energy crops um and and crop yield also so like Chris said high level research going on at at in these in these fields um at uiu and Urbana champagne um and we’ll also be talking about that Grant um the lake deater or the uh oh yeah cater Watershed remediation I’m scrambling it all up but we’ll be talking about that Grant too um and uh working to remediate water and soil using hemp um into cater yeah if you guys are interested in that I’ll try to link our episode where we talked about that I’ll find that um and sorry just real quick another just small note to end on am I correct to understand that we got into cannabis research like you just described because of the farm bill the you the universities Across the Nation got access to the cannabis plant because of the farm bill gosh that farm bill is so bad yeah and what they’re what they’re doing is revolutionizing our agronomic system um yeah the you know one quick mention about um the show Last Week Tonight with John Oliver just did a piece on corn uh and he the statistic that they threw out there was that the value of the Corn Market’s about 90 billion uh and in the US and then you look at some of the recent data that’s come out of uh bo Whitney and his estimates on uh what the size of the hemp Market is and he did he estimated about 28 billion so we’re already 30% of the way there to competing with corn and we haven’t even gotten started yet I guess is one way to look at it um because that’s mostly just from the cannabinoid side so I think there’s you know it needs to be taken seriously at this point because it’s a it’s a major contributor to the economy uh and as evidenced by the just a straight gross comparison to Corn um where already uh you know uh well established and we should be moving forward not backward oh yeah well on that note I think we should close uh Rachel and Chris I want to thank you both for joining me and of course Phil thank you for joining the conversation like I said I always love it when you join um folks I hope you found value in this episode of the coal memo go to illino hg. if you want to stay apprised of all the detail sign up for the email list Pro tip you get emails pretty awesome you get to stay in the loop so and you know not only for crazy happenings like what we covered today but for cool things like the event we just mentioned or disc golf we do that from time to time so stay in the loop um and join the fun all right well we’ll see you on the next episode of the co MMO take care