The Cole Memo

“So, for those on the fence about diving into these hemp-infused waters, I say: put on your life vest and start swimming.“ – Ali Jubelirer, RollingStone.com

You’ve probably already figured out why I was eager to have a conversation with Alissa Jubelirer after reading the above quote. In this episode, we dig deep into a comparison between the hemp and regulated-cannabis markets across the United States. Our primary focus centers on Illinois and its unique position relative to other states. We also explore a recent story I shared about outdoor cannabis cultivation in Illinois. Ali and I discuss what made this story so intriguing to her, and I provide insights into my reasons for writing it.

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Links mentioned

• Ali’s RollingStone article: https://www.rollingstone.com/culture-council/articles/how-pivot-your-cannabis-company-when-industry-challenges-come-way-1234839506/
• Outdoor cultivation article: https://thecolememo.com/2023/12/09/exclusive-outdoor-cultivation-of-cannabis-in-illinois/

The auto-generated transcript is available below.

I was recently reading the Rolling Stone and I came across the headline how to Pivot your cannabis company when industry challenges come your way I thought I might have an idea of what this article was about and my suspicions were confirmed by the subline for those on the fence about diving into these hemp infused Waters I say put on your life vest and start swimming folks today I’ll be speaking to the author about this article what they meant and so much more folks you’re listening to the Cole memo I’m your host Cole Preston every episode is released in audio video and transcript format to find the transcript audio or video version of any episode please refer to the description of the episode that you’re listening to now within that description you can find a link that will take you to our website which will display the transcript for this episode and the platforms where you can find this episode in audio or video formats if you’re unable to locate the episode description on whichever platform you’re listening from I get it platforms change all the time and it’s kind of hard to know where they tuck those episode descriptions so if you can’t find it simply note the episode number and visit the memo.com from there you can find the corresponding episode and then you’ll be able to access the audio video or transcript version of that episode you might also find any links that we reference during the episode like the one I just read or the article that I just read rather so that you might be able to do your own research if you’re not listening to this episode of the Cole memo on patreon then you’re listening to this episode later than our patrons to become a patron go to the memo.com patreon once again that’s the memo.com pat o n it’s a great way to support our show it only costs $33 a month and you get episodes as they release one of the best ways to support our show however is free subscribe to our follow our show leave us a positive review from wherever you’re listening to us from favorite this episode give it a thumbs up leave a comment post a review tell your friends about it your engagement and support is appreciated today is December 20th 2023 I don’t know why I just about said August I’m joined by Ali jubiler Ally how’s it going today oh and you’re muted sorry you’re still muted because I asked you whoops sorry Hi no I’m it’s going well thank you and you got my last name right so good job hell yeah off to a good start already well really quick I just want to lay a little bit of foundation here and then I want to have you actually go ahead and introduce yourself and then I’ll lay the foundation how would you introduce yourself uh if we just I mean we’re encountering each other right now tell me a little bit about yourself um well I am a lawyer by background I uh I actually graduated from lyola here in Chicago in 2000 and spent most of my career practicing law either at a law firm or um inhouse so I was at Tribune um back in the day and then went to Groupon after that and left Groupon in 2019 to become the general Council of Revolution uh cannabis here in Chicago which I like to describe as the um as the uh the smallest of the big msos and still privately held um I was there for about two years and then that second year is when covid hit and I ended up leaving um I like to say the wheels kind of came off during Co with the kids coming home from remote learning and everybody kind of re-evaluating their lives um so I ended up leaving um Revolution and for about a year after that I was doing legal Consulting work in both Tech and cannabis so I was um acting as the outside General Council for a cashless payment platform called Arrow pay for about a year and also just working with other clients and then um during that time uh I kept watching the new New Mexico Market because of some personal connections that I had there and saw that they were coming online for adult use and decided that uh I was gonna give it a shot and put a team together to apply for licenses in New Mexico very cool and off we went and that was the the Inception of dynamic Jack which is a cannabis company that I now run in New Mexico very cool very cool Dynamic Jack do you want to shout out the uh web website for that if anybody wants to check it out yes um also I’d love for my dog to stop barking in the background um it’s uh www. dynamic. Co um and you can check out our line of products and um more about us there sweet and I don’t even think I heard your dog barking uh so the the noise cancellation must be working out um that’s good so here’s how I think I’d like to lay the foundation for this um and and maybe we can um Kick things off uh I want to give you the floor how would you explain and you have this in your article uh so people can see a text explanation of this as well but how would you explain what the difference between hemp and marijuana is can we start with that yes um and it’s funny because everybody that I talked to describe has different words that they use to define the difference which of course is um complicated because the the plant is the same plant it’s sativa L Cannabis sativa L is the scientific name of the plant so I call it regulated cannabis and then I call it uh hemp D9 but I always have to kind of explain it and you know neither one is really uh correct I guess but um that’s how I talk about it and of course the difference is what is legal and what is not legal under the farm bill um so the hemp is a con like a legislative construct essentially that has deemed the cannabis plant to be hemp if it meets certain bhc levels or lack thereof I guess yeah I the way I like to describe it is like there’s a fence right here and on this side of the fence you’ve got your legal terms and I keyword legal terms marijuana and hemp because I don’t choose to call the plant either either of those names because on the other side of the fence you have your scientific terms so in other words we’re talking about cannabis here but we’re talking about almost like arbitrary definitions that we’ve made for the plant would you agree with that and like you said based off of totally the key the key thing is like you say based off of uh the amount of THC that’s in it by dry weight is that right or yes yes that’s correct uh 3% you know uh dry weight and that’s you know the loophole right because um Everybody read that restriction and then decided what would that look like if it was not dry weight and what could we kind of get away with and that’s how the loophole in the farm bill was born um I don’t call it I’ll tell you one other thing on the on the language I actually don’t use the word marijuana because I feel like it it derives from sort of racist you know terminology and and the history of the the plant so that’s another reason why because it would be very easy I know a lot of people do say like marijuana and hemp and I just won’t I don’t like using the word marijuana so I avoid it yeah totally with you there totally with you right there um another uh this is a graphic uh explanation that I like to show from a comic artist his name is box Brown and it just really helped it click for me um I’ll give you a moment to take it this in and maybe could you tell our listeners do you agree with what you’re seeing right now let’s see the language has been extrapolated to mean that any H product with less than 3% THC by weight is in fact legal hemp yes so I like this graphic representation because it shows that these companies seem to have figured out you know if you if you make most of it you know gelatin sugar even CBD or corn starch you just keep a little sliver of it THC it’s a legal product right yeah yeah and but I mean I would say even that a lot of Manufacturers have taken that much further you know in terms of extracting 3% THC out of these plants that are grown for low THC right in the first place and then kind of replicating that over and over and over again until you get uh you know hemp D9 you know distillate that’s as intoxicating as regulated cannabis toit um it’s just a function of extracting and concentrating the amounts down and then it’s the same thing so yeah it’s h it’s fascinating it really is and I think this gets to the point of your article that maybe I can really open up the floor for you here because I just loved everything about what you had to say about this and I really think there’s it’s becoming almost irresponsible not to get into the hemp space if you are a cannabis operator and so just to lay some Foundation here a few tweets that have really caught my attention uh Chris Becker from the honeybee Collective said I just talked to a bank that will take deposits from and providing and Prov provide funding for Farm Bill authorized businesses including thca hemp between that the farm bill extension and state prohibitions on hemp being decimated in court the hemp space is almost irresistible then you have people like Snoop Dogg getting into the thca Vape and D9 THC drink uh Arena you’ve also got people like Tommy Chong and uh cheich Marine getting in there and then yeah the icing on the cake you’ve got a big cannabis brand one of the most well-known I’d argue cookies selling thca through the mail um and 1906 just jumped in too did you see that that they’re launching all of their cute little I call them pills I don’t know if they’re really called pills but you know launching all those with md9 so they can sell them online direct to Consumer so what made you what made you write the article was it that was it that idea that it’s just becoming irresistible and it’s it’s like sink or swim baby piss or get off the pot you know yeah basically I mean I I was lucky to have like a front row seat a little bit to the evolution of all this in real time because of a group that I’m involved in of some really amazing women some of whom are in the beverage space some who are in the gummy space and um I just it was to me it was like a dirty little secret that the Cannabis beverages all getting into this space and nobody was talking about it and so when I finally talked to one of the CEOs of those companies and she kind of explained to me what had been going on like my mind was a little bit blown um because up until that point I think I saw when you flashed on the screen and I know Chris um he’s great and he I saw it lower in the comments he put something like I used to be such a prude I think about like H9 and that was what it was it was like when we would talk about before it was like oh empty n it’s the worst thing of the md8 and all the other you know it’s anything that’s not regulated cannabis is scary dangerous unregulated gross you know and and beneath you know the Cannabis regul regulated cannabis industry and all of us operators who fought you know tooth and mail and you know Blood Sweat and Tears to get our businesses started and then these guys just like roll up with some empty n gummies and put them in a corner store you know so it was a lot of like you know looking at looking down our noses at at hempy n in general and there was good reason to do it a lot of it is unregulated and could be very dangerous I would not like to find out that the hemp D9 gummies I’m consuming are made in somebody’s Garage in you know Texas somewhere and like with people with no you know no sanitary requirements of any kind and you know I’d be more worried honestly about getting like some salmon illa or something nasty from those things than like what the THC would do to me on the other hand the THC is way stronger than it used to be when I was a kid when I was in college and um it is dangerous that kids can walk into a store and get you know a giant bag of gummies and end up in the hospital having a panic attack you know um so I think the key and what I was really wanting to say in that article is two things number one is like we don’t really have a choice because the way that the system is set up we’re all set up to fail essentially is as regulated cannabis operators and we do have you know we have a fiduciary duty a lot of us to our investors and um the people that put their faith in us and so we have to explore you know every conceivable legal option to keep our businesses alive um and so that’s part of it and then the other part of it is leaning into compliance you know it at as these bigger players get in the game the hemp D9 and hemp d8 and other cannaboid processors will have to level up and they’re already doing it so once they’re at a place where they’re testing the same and you know you’re getting the same coas and you know that everything’s being created in the same way that it would be created in a regulated you know cannabis licensed facility then unless you’re you know maybe a constitutional you you know strict constitutionalist and have decided that the farmvill loophole is not a line you’re willing to cross there’s no reason to get not get in it you know sorry that probably didn’t come out completely no articulate but I followed you actually and you said some things that that uh I’m really happy that you it sounds like you’ve had like an evolution of thought cuz maybe you can take me through it cuz I’m trying I’m trying to understand the people that look down at theirse at it frankly uh I can pull up a quote our head regulator recently said but she said something to the effect of everybody thinks that hemp and Delta a is the devil they only ever say hemp and Delta 8 by the way they never talk about Delta 9 I know it’s so weird which is the more intoxicating of the two right between d8 and D9 right they always choose d8 and she said uh and I quote 95% of our problems go away if the federal government closes the loophole um and I’m just uh well so just in this case of Illinois um I want to make it clear that you know um the idea is that these products are sold at a lower um here’s what she said these products either go untaxed are only subject to retail level taxation making them more affordable than cannabis this harms our social Equity licenses so Illinois has a little bit of a unique argument they’re arguing that because these products are cheaper we harming undercutting licenses yeah getting undercutting um but I’m can you just take me through the evolution of thought where can we start to where you were looking down on these hemp operators and kind of go through like what changed your mind or but yeah well I I think it is this concept that as a regulated operator like I said before we’ve gone through you know hell in high water a lot of us to to get our businesses going and much of that is because of the regulations and the fees and the things that we have no choice but to do um and so there is this unfairness of like we’ve worked so hard to even get to where we are today and then you guys just Waltz on in here and start selling competitive products at half the price and like how are we going to you know how can we compete with that so there is that part of it my my answer to that is like life is tough though we didn’t know we all went through what we went through and here we are right um it’s not a good enough reason to not explore it you know um but that’s definitely like the mentality of like you guys don’t you guys don’t know and half of what we know you haven’t been through half of what we’ve been through and then the second part of it was the unregulated of it right like what you know not having any regulations around how these things are made it’s just you have no idea what people are how they’re being made what facilities they’re being made in you don’t even know honestly I mean you don’t know if the coas there’s nobody like like most hemp um products have you know they do tests and there’s like QR codes on the packaging and things like that but you don’t know I mean they could be like madeup tests nobody’s looking at them they’re doing it because they think that um and they’re not wrong that consumers would like to see what’s in their product but you don’t know if it’s real and there’s nobody no’s no oversight you know what I’m saying so that piece of it is really scary and then what that means is that your average consumer has no idea what the difference is between any of this stuff they walk into a store and they see d8 or D9 and they’re like huh thought I could only get that in a dispensary I guess not let me try it you know so they have no idea um what they’re getting themselves into on the operator side we do know and so what it says to me is that we’re really left to police ourselves right so in other words if I’m going to jump into the hemp D9 space it’s up to me to find um and do my due diligence with a manufacturer that I trust and that I think is doing things compliantly and above board and with testing and sanit sanitary methods and sop and the whole thing um but I don’t think that that second argument’s wrong I mean I I would venture to say the vast majority of hemp manufacturers are probably doing the bare minimum when it comes to those things because it’s expensive um and they’re certainly not I don’t think checking when they sell their products to stores whether the stores are carding kids when they walk in um you know in a dispensary it’s everything is much tighter so there’s far less fear that a kid’s going to get their hands on that stuff unless somebody goes to the dispensing and buys it for them so that was kind of all the stuff that we were fed you know and that we were told it’s dangerous it’s gross it’s um sells in inferior like stores like the smoke shops aren’t nearly as nice as you know the dispensaries and um and like screw them we went through a lot to get here so we’re not going to embrace these products or these people or this new you know this new method of making these intoxicating cannaboids yeah and what if we could take me through it again what what was it that flipped the switch and by the way thank you for being willing to talk about an evolution in path I think there are so many people that are just doubling down on whatever stance they’re taking you know whether it be for or against this stuff and to hear somebody that that is fluid in their thought and open to idea is obviously is really refreshing so what was it that that ultimately took all of what you just said and you were like turned it on its head yeah you’re like I think I’m gonna do this it was talking to my friend at that at the the beverage company when she kind of let me in on this like secret that I didn’t know that like all these beverage companies were using hempty n and I’m like what and that’s what made me decide to go and sell my cookie dough which was being made you know my D with r girl goodies was one of our sub Brands under Dynamic Jack and it’s cookie dough that we made in New Mexico with regulated cannabis distillate made from our farm and after talking to and I that’s when I got the idea of like well if they’re selling beverages all over the country and they’re doing it like online and in you know other stores why can’t I and that’s when I talked to Lisa I learned what was really going on behind the scenes and I was like well if they’re all doing it then I’m going to do it for my cookie dough so that’s where it really came from this like me seeing the the beverages you know the ability suddenly for these beverages to go from one state to like 10 states you know in a matter of months was doing it with hempty n and they weren’t be you know this one particular beverage couldn’t even get out of the gate with with national um licensing and production of their drink because none of the regulated cannabis operators wanted to invest in it because they were drowning like everybody and also it required giving up space for a canning line and storage I mean beverages are not you know they’re kind of bulky products and so you had these beverage companies that would start with regulated cannabis in one state and then could not get out of the gate in any kind of Licensing or co-packing deal you know and that’s when they all finally turn to to hempty n and but but but from the consumer perspective like if you go on most of their websites you wouldn’t know you would just be like oh it’s all THC like why can’t I order this okay and I think the confusion was like a little bit purposeful and I don’t think consumers quite get it they just see it’s THC but if you and I Circle back to the big end of the conversation it is just TC so maybe that’s a good thing you know um that they don’t understand all the difficulty of how that beverage ended up on the Shelf in their dispensary or local store you know yeah yeah that’s always been a TR a thing that’s hard for me to explain to people but one time I actually saw a nurse uh that’s going to come on my show um talking about this and somebody was saying because uh it’s actually a become a pretty big story we covered it but ended up getting picked up by axios as well uh Benny’s which is a big time retailer they’re carrying some can strings now and um somebody I that’s like a watershed moment in Illinois by the way I think I that’s what I’m saying like that’s a really big really big deal deal oh and what this person was saying was so I shared that and they were saying you know I’d rather go to the dispensary and get drinks and uh because I I want a high that actually that I actually feel these are these are lesser than what you’d find in the dispensary and the clinician basically just said like can you explain to me the difference molecularly and the dose that you’re talking about because we’re talking about like a 10 milligram drink 10 milligram drink it’s Delta 9 THC one is just hemp dered and the reason they call it hemp arrived correct me if I’m wrong it’s I mean in the case of drinks I thought this was kind of funny I’ve talked to a few different drink companies the ultimately the reason they call it hemp derived is because if you were to boil it down it would legally be defined as hemp there is no difference actually don’t yeah I actually don’t know if that’s entirely correct but I don’t I you know I’m still sorting my way through a lot of this [ __ ] because I think it’s up to interpretation but what I understand it is is at least from the natural when they well so there’s a difference between and I don’t like this terminology this is what the DEA has used right naturally derived D9 and synthetically derived D9 meanwhile they both use a chemical process right so I don’t but the difference is and this is what I think you might be referring to is that when they bring the hemp in for the naturally derived version none of those plant theoretically are over 3% THC right right so that’s why they’re legal they’re being brought in that way right what comes out at the end of the process is where I think people are like okay well if you you know reversed it you’d still be legal kind of thing you know because it came from the 3% THC the synthetic version is even more I guess argu toally legal I guess because it starts with CBD so they’re taking CBD isolate and then they’re converting that into d8 and then one more step is like D9 this is how and by the way this is how it’s been explained to me by extractor so I’m probably butchering some of it but it’s a Layman’s understanding and seen the equipment of course but um but in that case you’re starting with CBD which is legal under the farm bill so that I think that the issue is whatever pops out at the end is where people people are like well it’s derived from something that is legal under the farm bill so therefore it’s legal under the farm bill yeah but um and especially and that’s where that language of the dry weight comes in too because they never specified you know when that plant material comes in it’s dry weight right and it’s 3% THC or less so that’s how it comes into the facility yeah and that’s why it’s legal I think it’s crazy it’s crazy but I ultimately this all as and I think everybody should and I think like I say it’s the kind of the point of your article everybody should embrace this because it is whether or not it was the legislative intent as people like to bring up it’s progress like how do you how can you not see this as progress some people are selling cannabis like nationally accepting credit cards getting funding go ahead I think we see it as progress but I think the public sees it as scary I mean I’m I’m a parent you know I have two kids my son is 12 um I have a niece who’s going off to college and came home you know last year with like a bag of gummies from a smoke shop that was like I don’t even know how many hundreds of milligrams you know like and that’s scary because I have a high tolerance but you know if you gave if a kid took you know a 50 milligram empty n gummy on accident a kid who’d never you know really done had ever smed or had had edible before I mean it would literally put them in the hospital probably and like a panic attack is what they mostly get when kids end up in the hospital after eating a gummy so no is any of this deadly no you know what I mean that’s one of the beauties of the plant right um but it’s it could be really scary and I you know that’s what that’s why I was saying it’s for us it’s progress because we just want to see the plant and the medicine and and the product be you know treated like they should be like like you know regulated like alcohol you know but as a parent I didn’t like the way I’ll tell you this Paul as a parent and as a lawyer you know I did not like the way that this came about and to your question earlier I think maybe that’s part of it too is like as a lawyer we’re taught to follow the law you know that there are right and wrong answers and it doesn’t feel great I would say you as a lawyer to take advantage of a loophole in the law that you know damn well that nobody meant to be there in the first place it was an accident literally an accident you know by legislators who really didn’t obviously have a firm grasp on what you know the language they were putting in like how that could be interpreted right and so I would say it’s coming out to be and what I keep reading now is it’s coming out to be crazy enough it seems like the answer to all of it right right to Federal legalization to the whole enchilada and we’ve all been fight you know we’ve been fighting it so hard on the regulated cannabis side for so long now not only are you seeing this shift where people are open to using it and their products and distributing it but people are saying it’s the answer like we’re already people are now like we’re already federally legal what do we need all this legalization mumbo jumbo for um which is also incredibly fascinating to see that Evolution like holy [ __ ] we went from like hating them and wanting them to disappear to like they’re the answer you know it’s nuts right only in cannabis right exactly it’s crazy like I say well and I don’t want to like I’m not trying to push this topic off but it is interesting how at least in the case of Illinois it seems like it’s one of the only actually I think I can tie this in pretty well it’s one of the only I would say it’s one of the strongest challenges to the limited license system like I’ve bitched about the limited license system from a consumer standpoint for years but apparently that doesn’t matter I’m just saying that kind of sarcastically no I get it I get it but but like all of the sudden this this hemp thing comes around and now it’s like so it started what you were talking about and this is how I’m going to tie it in because I want to talk hopefully we don’t get too lost in this but it started at in Illinois this conversation started about these high schoolers that bought just the exact scenario you laid out yeah and it was always pitched as this public health uh emergency right and people were freaking out and it was just a story that wouldn’t go away people kept bringing it up and so what the hemp Growers did in our state at least a lot of them they partnered with a representative and they is they introduced legislation where they said hey we agree this is an issue and and as a result we would like to be regulated just like you are so we would be only be able to sell to 21 years of age or older potency testing and you can even tax us they they added that on you can even tax us the way because they always say the taxes are undercutting our right remember I just read that at the beginning so well 28 too is a nightmare right they don’t want that that’s PR damn sure yes and the response was just basically no because if you just gave every hemp operator a license then that dilutes the market and as a lot of social Equity licenses sh say is social Equity is market share so if you’re taking away from their market share you’re taking away from their social Equity yes I mean you’re essentially giving out more licenses right up to whatever the max is for the state which is a couple hundred I think so I just I bring that up I like how we tied that in like because you bring up a point that was discussed in Illinois and it’s interesting that hemp operators came back with a solution and basically it seems like it’s just taken the yeah in Illinois it’s taken air out of a Del the air out of it because it no longer can you really argue it’s a public Public Health Emergency at least in Illinois because they’re like hey regulate me regulate me I’m up for it well and it’s fascinating I thought Cole I don’t know if you saw this but I thought thought it was really fascinating to watch like kind of what happened in Kentucky which is you know where McConnell’s from and he’s the architect of the farm bill never obviously meant for any of this to happen but he would never ever ban it in kentu mean I said this he would never ban it in Kentucky because he would destroy you know ky’s economy because there are a bazillion H Growers there so Kentucky just passed some pretty stringent you know regulations um around hemp and hemp products you’re now I think going to have to register in the state and a bunch of other stuff I mean I do like a deep dive into it but I mean it’s you know it’s substantial and I think it’s very telling that you know a conservative State like Kentucky when faced with the option of of banning it alt together chose not to and that they’re putting together you know real regulations and I think that will be a template you know for a lot of other states to follow to the extent they don’t just fold the hemp products into um the existing you know cannabis framework in that particular state but I think Banning is not the answer you know I think regulating is the answer and to truthfully the easiest answer is to regulate them the exact same way because back to our original point it’s the same plant right yeah yeah but and that’s why I think but it is I it is hard though for the social Equity applicants sorry to interrupt you I just you know I I get that like giving out all of these licenses when there are already you know lenses out there that can’t even get their businesses stood up would be kind of brutal right yeah and I mean that’s that seems to just be the the circle we spin around here in Illinois it’s like we want to end the cycle of criminalization but complete decriminalization would mean you know kind of open licensing yeah so that which which by the way is you know not I mean look I’m I’m in New Mexico we purposely never got into retail because we’ve all seen this movie before of what happens in unlimited licensed states with retail and there are now over I think 600 retail licens licenses in the state for a state of two million people I mean we’ve got how many dispensaries do we have open now 30 40 50 I don’t know but some under 200 dispensaries for 12 million people right yeah um so you can throw a rock in Albuquerque and hit like four dispensaries in a row it’s a bad look it’s bad for the market everybody’s struggling because of it so you know unlimited license markets are not the answer either it’s just kind of mind-blowing that nobody can get you know to a position to a compromised you know structure that kind of takes the best from the unlimited license markets and the best from the limited license markets and you know meshes them together yeah yeah it just it seems like yeah like if we want people to be able to participate and address the issues of criminalization we have to give them an opportunity to participate by way of you know Li being licensed and complying to regulations and like you say following the rules your favorite thing to do is lawyers right but uh but I I will say to your point too before about you know what’s happening in Illinois is that it Segways back into you know the I don’t disagree when people say like yeah giving all these people licenses would hurt the existing you know social Equity applicants and their ability to get their businesses stood up but I also believe that there are a lot of things that could change in Illinois you know like outdoor growing for example which you and I talked about that would help social Equity applicants get up and running and then be able to have you know compete realistically if other new licenses are granted to hemp Growers or anybody else so I just think there’s a lot of ways that the Illinois Market is really handcuffed right now um especially for the social Equity craft Growers and Retail owners just really quick because it’s another question that has been like the theme of this podcast before we get to outdoor outdoor stuff and kind of wrap up this this hemp conversation um I’m curious just because you brought it up and it’s a it’s a perspective I hear all the time like from my perspective the the the end all be all goal of legalization was to end arrests but as you’ve said and as other people say on this show all the time it seems like people bring up this other goal which is like the idea of kind of blly shielding operators from Market forces I feel like they want to prevent price compression they want to prevent receivership or going out of business which I think both you and I can agree we would never wish financial hardship on anybody um but like really it just seems weird that in cannabis we’ve even made that a goal when meanwhile in like the restaurant industry we just accept that like 80% of businesses go out out they just go out of business within the first years yeah like what I’m just curious though what do you think is the because you said I don’t you said I don’t think open licensing is the is a answer the answer either and I’m guessing it was probably because of some of those reasons I just listed off why do you where do you think that that idea comes from with cannabis like just honestly asking because you’re not the only person that has ever said that that needs to be a thing you know what I mean yeah the the the failing yeah I you know it’s interesting because I will tell you i’ I’m S I sit on a working group in in New Mexico where it’s a lot of um Legacy um operators who want the you know Governor to essentially pause on the issuance of new dispensary licenses not like a not like a c end but just like a breath because there’s just way too many of them and it’s it’s not just hurting the Legacy you know businesses it’s hurting the small businesses too you can see all of their Revenue numbers on their website and they’re not sustainable you know making less than $30,000 a month running a dispensary is not sustainable so um but there’s a lot of people that I’ll talk to in New Mexico that’ll just say look that’s capitalism that’s the market right people go in they they try their hand at it they lose their business that’s that’s it I think um but I think it does tie back into what you were saying before right because the social equity programs sprung out of a place of wanting to you know essentially remediate some of the Damage Done by the War on Drugs right and this acknowledgement that we’ve put a lot of people in prison for for weed when we shouldn’t have right and that it was predominantly you know African-American men um that suffered and so if you look at it from that perspective and you know if you really want to get you know High futin about it you could think about it even from the the perspective of affirmative action which of course the Supreme Court just shot down but you know there’s this there’s a there’s a piece of this where it’s like yeah like these folks deserve an opportunity before everybody else you know to to have their hand at it but and to your point why should that be limited in any way but I think there’s also a responsibility for each state that does this to um to put together a structure that is I don’t know that that that people can actually have a business in you know I mean everyone when you make it so so easy to get a license people go and get them and then they spend their life savings and and so is there you know I would like to see something that’s somewhere in between you know I don’t think that it’s necessarily A Bad Thing For example for people to have to show that they have some money in the bank before they get a license so that they can reasonably succeed um I mean I think a lot of people would say that that’s like big brother esque like you know and it should just be free market but you know I don’t know I’ll give you another example this is maybe a better example our farm is in a little town in Estonia New Mexico with 1500 people in it there’s no grocery store there’s no bank there’s no restaurants except for like a McDonald’s Taco Bell Fried Chicken Kentucky Fried Chicken Place like 15 minutes away but there’s two dispens Aries why why are there two dispensaries I mean you know could a for example a simple population study tell you after 38 plus states have come online how many people can how many how can a dispensary how many people does a dispensary need to have right to stay in business in that state what does that population look like then if they they fail then it’s on them but at least haven’t been set up for failure with the you know having 14 dispensaries next to them to compete with right yeah and it’s it and some of that zoning and stuff like in New Mexico for example they just make exceptions to all the zoning laws you want to be near a school fine you want to be near a park fine you want to be near three other dispensaries fine it’s like what’s the point I mean they all see dollar signs but at the end of the day if none of them can have a functional business because they’re all in competition with each other and they all go out of business there are no dollars right so I just feel like there’s got to be some rationality to it um but I understand the counterargument which is capitalism and you know you either succeed or you fail you know yeah and for me it’s a little it’s honestly less about the capitalism I mean that’s definitely like I feel like a convincing argument some people would say to like some of the things you said like with regard to people getting set up and you you know almost like a not a dispensary desert but a dispensary abundance area they would say you know well the invisible hands going to sort that out um right my my thing and I guess really quick before I shift to my main thing on limited licenses or my main contention on limiting licenses uh which like I said doesn’t have to do so much with capitalism but really quick uh Oregon I’ve spoken to the lead he was the lead commissioner at Oregon like liquor and cannabis commission or control or something I’m not sure exactly the acronym but anyways you know orgon’s always used as a right ocm MDC I mean there’s so many right CCD right right I think it’s OLCC but exactly though poison we have so many there could be like a little scatter plot of acronym seriously but um and then all the different names for hemp and cannabis have have been regulated cannabis thrown in there just for added confusion right so he said because I asked him about this and it’s wasn’t an original question it was something I had heard on Vice like would you have allowed open markets to flourish the way it did when Oregon you know first opened up and he said of course it wasn’t his choice he’s just the regulator but if you were asking his personal opinion he said yeah he would have done it again and while again people had it tough it was like this idea that people knew what they were getting into or at least they should have like you just pointed out maybe some people don’t and maybe some people walk in blind but it’s like the way he explained it was he’d much rather that and you lose your shirt rather than not even being able to wear your shirt which he didn’t say it that way but you know what I mean yeah and I think I think that argument at least the last part of it flies if it doesn’t take six years and like destroy your life you know what I mean like so much of these licenses like in Illinois would held up for three years plus in litigation right and that is a long time for to sustain Partnerships relationships plans you know money I mean you know and to say that I mean I’m sure if you asked most of the social Equity applicants in Illinois they would have told you they never in a million years could imagin that these that the licenses would have been held up that long you know um and the other pie piece of it is that people don’t maybe the per capita numbers that I told you before or maybe the limited license model would work better if it weren’t for 280e because that’s really the kicker right and why these businesses can’t stay afloat because whatever margin they make is getting eaten up by the taxes they have to pay so I I think there’s I guess that’s just one example where I’m saying there’s other factors you know at play to why a limited license or unlimited license Market works or doesn’t work yeah you know like what would an unlimited license market look like if 28 didn’t exist right and if people could for example Bank normally it’d look like hemp right it would yes um exactly right that’s why people did that but umle sh yes um but I don’t you know it’s I I guess my point is it’s hard to even know necessarily what models work best because we have these other factors that are so significant floating around us at all times whether it’s the taxes or the banking or just the fact that you know everything we do cost more um our our programs and our software are typically inferior you know like we can’t we can’t use um not that people necessarily want to but we can’t use like you know a workday or pelocity or I somebody was asking me this the other day somebody was asking me why the point of sale at dispensar suck all the time and I was like it’s got to be because they have to have certain vendors together no it’s all cobbled together you now everything that has been created as a workaround to the you know to credit card processing has been created in like it’s it’s literally like a duct taped like these different system that’s what duy was trying to solve right but you know by like kind of making it One-Stop shopping and having a system that actually is integrated and works together I don’t think they and I don’t know that much about it I’m not sure they succeeded but yes it is a it’s a messed up system with these different pieces and now what you find is that like the one that’s good at e-commerce now wants to get into payments so then they launch their own payments but they’re again everyone’s cash strap because of 28 and the you know the market being in the [ __ ] so it’s all done on these shoestring budgets and you know nothing works right I mean as a result and it’s a lot of out outside factors um you know that come into play unfortunately and things that you can’t even anticipate yeah well um I just want to say really quick as we wrap up uh just uh I’ve had so much fun with you today and I hope you’ve had funo me too I love talking about this [ __ ] nobody wants to talk to me about it my family for sure we should do this again sometime I’ve really enjoyed my time with you so um really quick just because you brought up Hench Mitch McConnell I like to show picture of him with his H pen um I love it anyways Happ to a nicer guy that he gets tied to cannabis his legacy will be forever tied to weed for the rest of his Mis right it’s hilarious he definitely did not so this is my main conention with the limited license market and it it just seems to be like a universal constant in each state that and I don’t know maybe this problem bigger than wow bigger than me but like the criminal my point is the criminal justice system seems to be the main enforcement mechanism especially in states that have limited license markets like Illinois because these are seen as operators that are unlicensed and that’s that is the enforcement mechanism instead of it being like a a potential business offense which is what I’ve talked to some defense attorneys about like you know depending you know on the relative damage you may cause to society uh but you very rarely unless it Rose to that level would you find yourself thrown in a cage you know what I mean right right um which is good which is progress I guess right yeah yeah and you the point is you’d hope that for cannabis look I know that we just talked like obviously we don’t like you’re talking about unregulated sales and everything else so when you look at these products like that this this is in like vacuum seal bags or something it doesn’t look very but no um my point is these just look like entrepreneurs not these These are the cops they look like they look like they got into the bag honestly if you look yeah they do but they do this this load looks like um you know just a young entrepreneur that maybe couldn’t get a license I don’t know maybe I’m making assumptions but I just feel like it sucks that trafficking continues to be dealt with in that manner in Illinois because it’s still criminal law uh that that comes into play so that’s really my problem with the limitations on licenses is that like you can’t get in the business if you want to and so if you just do it the way you always did it you know before 2019 um you get met with something like that that you know and I just want to say really quickly like I generally am supportive of Regulation but I do have to say that like I think we need to I don’t know how to put this exactly it’s a thought that’s been spinning around in my head for a while so forgive me if it’s a bit raw but I’m just going to test it out on you and see what you think it just seems like cannabis has been trafficked for years and as we’ve always said without little issue nobody dies from Cannabis right and I’m not saying you know I’m just saying though that like I’m not saying that regulation isn’t necessary but if it’s been happening for all those years without all of this seed to sale and stuff like again I’m not saying we just have to rip out the system just because of what I said but like also like let’s be a little real here more yeah yeah I mean listen I I’m you know there are regulations that I think are necessary and there are regulations that I think are not and maybe not just maybe they’re not necessary Maybe they’re in my mind not even smart or maybe they’re even detrimental you know like the inability to grow outdoors in Illinois yes I completely disagree with that I think it’s detrimental to the market I think it’s DET I think there is so much that could be done there um but you know I’m also a mom and uh you know and I I don’t as much as I would rather have my children someday smoke weed than drink alcohol because I think alcohol is a far more damaging and dangerous substance but I also would like them to wait till their brains are developed you know to do that ideally yeah um and not have access to it all the time but right it’s also just part of our culture Cole which I think you know is a whole another conversation right like we’ll see It’ll be very interesting to see how weed unfolds like in across Europe you know because they’ve always had a more LAX you know um relationship with drugs and alcohol and wine at dinner with their kids and you know what I mean like so I just think we’re a very like rigid uptight Society in general and we think we have to regulate everything you know and and sometimes we do and sometimes we don’t and there’s got to be a one place in between as all yeah well said yeah well said well you brought it up a few times and thank you because you said really kind things about uh some of my work on this folks if you didn’t know I released uh what I’m calling an exclus because I’ve never seen this reported in the media um so there are two people that from what I’ve heard are cultivating outdoors in Illinois one facility is Nature’s Grace and wellness which this photo is actually uh from a different website that I found and this is actually what inspired me to really take a look into this because people that told me that this was going on kind of secretively they told me this was going on this is what they describe the facility is looking at like but I I wanted to see it first you know and when I saw this picture I’m like that that’s it that’s what they were talking about and so ultimately blows my mind yeah ultimately we got these photos which um are of cannabis growing inside of that facility Outdoors which if I could just really quick and then I’d like to hear why why you found this intriguing um that’s exceptional folks because while you might find Cannabis growing in green houses which some might argue is close to Growing Outdoors there’s no facility there’s only two facilities rather uh that I’m aware of that have the ability to do like as close to an outdoor grow as you can get and so if you’re listening to the podcast and couldn’t see this structure it’s just a screened in structure uh with cameras around it and otherwise it’s you’re just outside I call it a trip to Home Depot by the way because when you look at something like this like this facility this is like a a multi-month project um you know it takes a long time and then even when you get it set up you’ve got all these temperature control stuff on it for lack of better words I’m not an engineer HVAC systems I think that’s the technical term you’ve got to get your environment under control so it’s not like just because you built the building it’s ready to go there’s a whole process but this right you go to Home Depot you buy some [ __ ] tent poles and some netting and by the end of the week you can grow cannabis and so when we talk about social Equity craft cultivators not being able to grow anything and stand up their facility I’ve been thinking well this is the answer throw them a bone answer but I’m curious figure yeah yeah go ahead sorry no I’m sorry I I’m a little long-winded I’ve been smoking weed um uh I’m just curious yeah how did you how did you find out about this why did you find it interesting just curious I’ve been talking to Cole Eastman my partner in Dynamic Jack about this because he is part of a craft grower license and like money you know has struggled to get off the ground of course the irony there is we would love to have Dynamic Jack products in Illinois and I we have the brand and he’s got a craft row and we can’t do anything with either one of them to get us together because of the the money but um I you know after two years of practicing in an or of operating in an unlimited license Market where people grow outside I I think at some point I must have mentioned it to Cole as like this is the answer like why if we let the craft Growers grow outside they can get up and running and then they can get some money and then they can build an indoor if they want to but at least they can have you know an operational business and the answers and so Cole was like you’re right and and it was during that time period where I think the the onimus bill was up that got you know kind of sidetracked by the kids with the hemp gummies that we talked about before and um they were talking about you know increasing the square footage the canopy square footage and I’m like that’s great but if you let them grow outdoors that you know increasing the canopy maybe helps with investment right and making the margins work ultimately if you can grow at a certain price but like you know if you told if you told them tomorrow you can go grow outside well maybe not tomorrow because it’s the winter now but you know in the spring and my and the other but the responses I get is it’ll never happen a security concern and the msos will never let it happen because then it would be you know competition to them my answer to that is pretty simple and by the way I’m an I call myself I’m an MSO baby like I grew up in the Illinois Market in an MSO that was my first entry into the Cannabis industry right is here my second was Dynam Jack in a completely different Market um but um you know I think the answer is to allow the craft Growers to grow outside and then give them like a two-year Head Start and then let the msos jump in because the other piece of this in my opinion and again I’m just one person and I don’t know [ __ ] but I think Illinois is ultimately going to have a real problem and get crushed by Michigan and other states that do allow outdoor growing because the weed is half the price and it’s better um I mean I know a lot of people already that go over to Michigan to get you know to get product and come back because it’s half the price and it’s better weed so Michigan if look if Michigan can grow outside I mean I the first time I saw I saw a farm called grasshopper farms in pawpa Michigan it the only outdoor farm I ever saw before Dynamic Jack and I was like I gotta see this I’ve seen pictures of it online and I was like I got to see this place it was stunning stunning and and will Bowden who’s the guy you know who runs it you know he’s such a proponent of outdoor that he actually built an indoor grow on the property just to prove that indoor weed wasn’t better than the outdoor weed so I just think that is the answer and it benefits the msos too because if they don’t all start getting into the I mean look outdoor is the cheapest way to grow and we all know weed is a commodity right there’s going to be your top tier your bottom tier everything in between there’s going to be stuff grown just for extract which is what a lot of people do it without outdoor right um and so if Illinois wants to compete they our Growers got to learn to grow outside they don’t know how they don’t have any idea how to grow outdoors and they’re going to get crushed and I mean if you look online at the Illinois Department of Agriculture they talk about how Illinois is a leading producer of different uh you know agricultural products the state’s climate and varied soil types enable Farmers to grow and raise many other an opportunity they’re missing a big opportunity for Illinois and there’s like I said I believe there’s a way to do it where everybody benefits you let the craft Growers go first then you let the msos get in the game then everybody’s growing outside nobody’s going to come and raid your farm and steal your weed you know yeah you know they’re so scared that about the security and it’s like you know hemp Growers grow outside people grow outside in other states you know you know I got asked because I shared this on like different weed forums and one of the questions that I got because this is a long article so thank you again for reading it um well and I want to know your take too I want to hear like your thoughts on what I just said too yeah well I mean I completely agree that’s exactly why I wrote I don’t that’s not the primary reason I wrote it but it was just like a just because I’ve been talking to all these craft cultivators everything you just said was exactly what I was thinking when I was writing this but to just be completely candid one of the PE many people have asked me and it was P like I found it notable in a community of cannabis consumers they were like why should I care about this as a cannabis consumer it seems like the typical Illinois rigma rooll I don’t know they didn’t say exactly that but basically that and I said the reason you should care is because if two people or two entities are allowed to grow outdoors right now why can’t I as a medical patient because in Illinois and by the way I’m sorry I was speaking to you as if I didn’t realize you knew so much like you were saying that you knew about the Omnibus thing and all I didn’t realize you were like oh no but you know more than I do for sure but did you say you’re in Chicago too right now or something I am in Chicago I just I was talking to you like you weren’t even from Illinois and stuff I knew you were from Illinois but I didn’t so my apologies no it’s fine I trying to fill in the blanks but I’ve got these tents behind me you know in order to stay compliant well you can only see one um in my weird curtains because I uh had uh an air conditioning unit there um but uh you know I do that to remain compliant with the law but you know I’d love to be able to take advantage of the natural elements and obviously two entities so why could grow plants on your freaking deck you know what I mean it be yeah no it’s it’s it’s it’s a silly construct and it’s just it’s not and that was my primary reason for writing It ultimately though I was just kind of like I heard so glad that you did when I saw it I was like finally someone else who like you know thinks the way I think about it yeah because my question was my question was do I have to do that at home do I need to go to Home Depot and get some tent poles and some cameras and some netting will that allow I I will tell you one thing it’s a lot harder to stand up a farm from a patch of dirt like we did in um that than just going a Depot but it is a lot cheaper and a lot more simple especially you know in a micro and if you have a good you know good growing environment and all that um and cons consumers I think will care about it or starting to care about it from an environmental perspective just in terms of the amount of an you know of light usage and waste and all that that goes on you know at the big indoor facilities and so you know people care are care about that stuff and they also care about um you know just look at the Organic Revolution you know everybody wanting their food to come you know be come as close to the from the earth as possible and all of that I mean that’s outdoor outdoor weed that’s nature right and of course I’m sure you’ve read articles and things about like the turps and stuff that you know they find in sungrown Plants versus indoor um so I just think all around it would make it would just be such a great solution if they had offered that up at any point you know or even now or it won’t happen but for the spring you know to our Growers look at all these craft Growers we could have beautiful outdoor weed by the Fall you know know but we won’t want Let It Grow Let It Grow Let It Grow exactly and I think the other part of that qu too and this is what I challenged I asked Charlie bachel a question about this at a grown-in event actually it was just like are you T like like Cresco is one of the biggest companies right so they are one who can afford like a Washington lobbyist right who goes to Washington and talks to people about legalizing weed but I asked him I’m like are you talking to your West Coast counterparts you know those the bigger compan in California and and Oklahoma and you know those unlimited Colorado the unlimited license State operators that have survived and Thrive whatever that means in cannabis these days um are you talking to them because you know if you’re locking arms with your counterparts on the west coast and then you’re talking to you know Federal legislators it would seem that you would have more you know power and more Sway and the answer I got was basically our priorities are different so no we’re not really talking to each other and I just feel like it’s a last opportunity because it’s um that’s how I came up with this idea that Pro maybe we’ll never see the light of day but like I never in a million years would have thought that like outdoor growing could be an answer to to the the you know the craft Growers and their inability to get stood up I never thought that that I never would have thought of that had I not had the experience growing outdoors in New Mexico yeah so I just think it’s a shame that we’re not all talking to each other because yeah we might have somewhat different priorities but at the end of the day I think we all kind of want the same thing which is to be able to operate our businesses normally in cross state lines right yeah what do you think the difference in priorities might be well for example California and Oklahoma would love to give all their weed to places like Illinois you know and we don’t want it yeah true you know we don’t want their weed flooding our Market or at least we you know the msos don’t but really any business I mean God they’re already struggling imagine if tomorrow the weed started flowing in from California we would smoke them as I know right I mean it would be really it could be really so that that’s what I mean by the priorities are different California has an overabundance of weed and would love to put it elsewhere Illinois doesn’t you know and then you have limited license states that are like hell no keep your weed to yourself so you know I think that’s a definitely a conflict but that doesn’t mean that they’re not in agreement on other things right yeah well um one of the last questions I have for you because I feel like I’ve used a lot of your time you know um I love it I’d love talking to you it’s been great cool again we have to do this we have to do this again um but I’m just curious you brought up being a lawyer and this person that uh I actually found your article off of another person that was a lawyer and they were talking about hemp and stuff and I’m just curious as a as a lawyer but also as a cannabis Advocate this is the big idea that I’ve had with hemp that I I feel like like you said it’s almost like for us it’s a big win but maybe for others it’s not viewed that way but I’m just curious uh just one last thought on that on this topic um this person was basically saying that hemp should be for industrial purposes not getting high uh they were saying that that is not the intent of the law and some one else responded by saying like you know whatever the case may be I hope that you’re not suggesting that finding workarounds to escape prohibition is somehow bad it’s this weird legal and ethical debate here like this is seems like something that would be in like a college class yeah it’s like what’s what’s the law and what’s the intent but what’s right you know what’s well I think that’s what you know I I get it as a lawyer it’s like you know you know I mean it’d be like I always joke around that um you know how you can’t vote if you’re a convicted felon yeah but like you could still be the president of the United States I always joke that’s a typo and like someone clearly forgot to write that you can’t vote if you’re a convicted felon and you can’t be president if you’ve been a convicted felon like it’s a typo so just needs to fix it yeah that’s my little analogy but I um I don’t know I don’t know I I think to your point earlier two years ago I would have been like nope I’m not getting into that freaking loophole I’m a lawyer I went through this I did this the right way I got my licenses I paid for them I did you know what I mean I would have been like no way um but in all honesty like I mean this is going to sound horrible but like desperation opens your mind a little bit more maybe to to some things that like you wouldn’t have considered before and desperation is a hard word but you know what I mean like you’re survival you’re surviving and all of a sudden you’re reading these things and you’re like okay it’s a loophole but like okay that’s on them they wrote it I didn’t write it and when you see that they’re just not I’m not supposed to know their you know I don’t I don’t read their minds you know yeah this is what I’m sure they didn’t intend this but like you know again to your point before such is life right and they’re not enforcing it in line with we usually perceive to be their intentions so it’s ex again it comes back to that point we started with it’s almost what did you say in your article put your life vest on and start swimming yeah start swimming yeah start swimming yeah I I yeah I think the fact that they had an opportunity to close that loophole and they didn’t and they kicked it that was a rubber stamp to everyone and now the gates are wide open you’re going to see this is the year of of hemp n and and really starting to take over I think yeah and I want to give you the space to close but I always wonder like that kick and then also even the legislation people always say it wasn’t the intent but did they even write the bill anyway like usually the all these bills are just provided to legislators anyway so like maybe that was the legislative intent but like yeah did Mitch McConnell mean it when he was signing it like did he think oh this is this Mitch McConnell definitely didn’t but it would be a pretty hilarious joke if the other people were in on and knew that this was gonna happen we’re GNA be smoking thca weed yeah exactly GCA weed is cracks me up I’m like so wait it’s not weed until you light it on fire and then it’s weed right see I can’t even make heads or tails of this stuff and and again I was like thca no way well now I’m like well look at this person and that person what are they doing and so who knows never I never say never that should that Never Say Never and should be a motto in this industry and also you know how people say hope is not a strategy is not a strategy unless you’re in cannabis that’s awesome that’s gonna be my tagline that and I must have been high when I took this job that’s going be the name of my book I’m gonna seal that quote that’s awesome um oh well I want to give you the space anything that we didn’t talk about that you that you wanted to talk about I know we covered all stars in the map but um no I enjoyed this I want to I we got to get together offline with um with with my other Cole and uh a a proper session a proper sesh yes absolutely I would love that so me too thank you so much Cole and thank you for writing that great article and like doing that I don’t you know it’s I just it’s crazy I mean look I you know it’s not their fault I guess that they were grandfathered into this but to know that that’s been going on this whole time while like we keep being told you can’t grow outside you know it’s pretty that was that was pretty good reporting major kudos to you that was a scoop thank you thank you you’re welcome and it deserves more attention so I hope I hope that it does get it I hope that the conversation continues because this would be this this is the thing that could I mean when I saw it I immediately wanted to send it to like Brad spearson because i’ been talking to him about this and like this could be the thing that could actually like potentially make change happen you know your article so good job thank you so much very impressive and folks I hope you found as much value in this conversation as I did um Ally we got to do it again uh definitely podcast but as you said we got a sesh and uh really looking forward either way to the next time that we connect so me too me too thank you so much for having me Cole appreciate it take care everybody have a good day bye everybody bye