The Cole Memo

In this episode, I have a conversation with Charlie Bachtell, the founder and CEO of Cresco Labs. I speak to Charlie about license limitations, home grow, the complete decriminalization of cannabis, hemp (THCa, etc), and more.

Cresco Labs stands as one of the most prominent publicly traded, multi-state cannabis corporations in the United States. For additional details about their operations and initiatives, visit their website at CrescoLabs.com.

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The auto-generated transcript is available below.

thank you for tuning into this episode of the Cole memo featuring Charlie backel just really quick before I send you into this episode I wanted to give you a heads up about two things first of all I’ve had this issue happen before and I think I know the uh solution to the issue but I I just still need to buy something so basically I have a portable recorder and depending on where I’m at it will pick up radio actually if you check out our future series on the legal sex industry in America which you can find at coal memo.com seex you’ll see in one of our episodes that my recorder was actually picking up CB radio which was actually really cool considering the circumstances so that is all to say that in this episode you might hear a little bit of background noise which is radio and I did my best to remove it and I think it’s not intrusive but just in case you hear a little jingle or chatter in the background you’re not going crazy well you might be I’m just joking you’re not going crazy there is some audio in the background of this recording the other thing I wanted to give full and candid disclosure about is the fact that I am an investor in Cresco now let’s be very clear about my Investment Portfolio and uh yeah let’s just talk about that for a second so first of all I purchased this stock 13 shares by the way not a huge amount on TD amera trade uh I think a few years ago at this point maybe definitely at Le definitely at least a year ago I think it was during the uh pandemic like lock down anyways though I purchased these stocks on TD amerit trade and frankly I I haven’t looked at them since then today I learned because I wanted to put this disclosure in today I learned that t TD amerit trade is no longer even a thing so when I logged into my TD amerit trade account to tell you how much stock I owned it said I needed to sign up for a Schwab account Charles Schwab so I did that and uh like I said I was able to confirm that I have 13 shares of stock worth $24 at this point uh in Cresco Labs I felt it was important to be completely candid about that not only the fact that I do hold stock but also the fact that frankly I just Googled how to purchase cannabis stock and found that TD Merit trade was the best option and I H I hadn’t even checked the cannabis stocks uh since I had made that purchase so when I went to look up how many how much stock do I even have uh I was at first I was like did I lose it because TDM a trade is no longer a thing like do I just that’s that what happens you just lose stocks see this shows you how much I know about Investments um and for all those reasons I felt this was an appropriate disclosure at the top of the episode folks I hope you find Value in this episode enjoy this is the Cole memo I’m your host Cole Preston every episode is released in audio video and transcript format to find the transcript audio or video version of any episode please refer to the description of the episode that you’re listening to now within that description you can find a link that will take you to our website which will display the transcript for this episode and the platforms where you can find this episode in audio or video formats if you’re unable to locate the episode description on whichever platform you’re listening from I get it all platforms are different simply note the episode number and visit thec memo.com from there you can find the corresponding episode and then you’ll be able to access the audio video or transcript version of the podcast you might also find any links that we reference during the episode uh so that you might be able to do your own research on a company like Cresco labs for example if you’re not listening to this episode of the Cole memo on patreon then you’re listening to this episode later than our patrons to become a patron go to the memo.com patreon it’s a great way to support our show but one of the best ways to support our show is absolutely free subscribe to or follow our show leave us a positive review from wherever you’re listening to us from favorite this episode give it a thumbs up leave a comment or post a review your engagement and support is appreciated in today’s episode of the coal memo I’m sitting down with Charlie backel from Cresco Labs Charlie welcome to the coal memo thank you Cole glad to be here yeah yeah it was uh pretty crazy we almost quite literally ran into each other in benzinga I don’t know if you recall that moment I like walked out of the door and almost literally ran into you you turned around and I was like oh hey Charlie so it’s really nice timing agreed yeah so it’s crescolabs dcom I wanted to mention the website at the top right is yes cresol labs.com perfect perfect well for folks that are tuning in I figure most of them know you they clicked on your name or clicked on this because of your name but in case there’s anybody tuning in and doesn’t know you can you give us an introduction to who you are and maybe tell us a little bit about Cresco Labs yeah sure um as as you said my name is Charlie bachtell uh co-founder CEO of Cresco Labs uh founded the organization in 2013 shortly after uh the governor at the time signed the compassionate use of medical cannabis act um that was my the trigger for me to look at the Cannabis space face as uh an issue I wouldn’t even say an opportunity uh but but an issue that was very interesting and I quickly realized it was not only interesting it was the most fascinating thing I’d ever looked at in my life and probably would be going forward so it all sort of started in 2013 and I’m sure we’ll talk about more of that as we go forward yeah yeah and so just for context folks I think the coal memo was issued in 2012 just a reference to the show name but it’s what allows all this to go on right I mean honestly one of the things I love about your pod the coal memo is it’s a watershed moment in not only cannabis uh reform and and and regulation but it is the defining moment in my life uh so the call Memo is is truly it was actually 2013 it was shortly after uh the governor of Illinois signed the compassionate use of cannabis act when when people ask me how a an attorney from the banking industry gets into cannabis I I always talk about sort of these three really transformative events that all happened within about 20 25 days of me looking at this for the first time you have Illinois really designing and authoring generation two of regulated cannabis highly regulated compliance focused which as you learn more about my background really spoke to me as an attorney in a regulated industry at the time like it a lot of parallels um pretty significant reason that I I took a first look at it so you have passing of the law here in Illinois within two or three weeks the coal memo comes out and also within that time frame Dr Sanjay gupta’s first documentary on weed um in on CNN yeah uh was was produced in and uh and aired so really three defining moments in the evolution of C cannabis happened within the first 3 weeks that I looked at it I tell people like I didn’t I didn’t stand a chance like this was this was going to be something that I I needed to pursue but the coal memo is a very important part of my life yeah and on my way here I was listening to some interviews you’ve given and uh an analogy you gave that that I thought I might have you recount so that I don’t butcher it is uh from your experience in like the financial sector and how kind of fast and loose it was for a while before the Reckoning of 2008 let’s call it and the Cole memo and you kind of made an analogy do you know what I’m talking about and can you maybe restate it for again like as as furtherance of the how does an attorney from the banking space get into cannabis I I found myself entering the banking industry in particular with a with a focus on Mortgage Banking in uh Q2 Q3 of of uh 2007 and and as most people remember within within 6 to n months after me getting into the Mortgage Banking space uh the sky truly started to fall and and when your industry is identified as a root cause of a global financial crisis just get ready for things to change you know so regulation starts flying at you from all different angles um and the parallels that I saw was fast forward to 2013 I’m in the industry there for six five six years at the Time Cannabis to me looked like another industry that was going to go from relatively unregulated to hyper regulated overnight on a state by- state by state structure which was the same as the the the uh the company that I worked for in the morgage banking SPS was State chartered so Illinois was different than New York was different than Florida was different than Illinois or from California and um another subject matter that had this Legacy of negative stigma associated with it you know coming out out of the the mortgage crisis nobody wanted to do business with the mortgage Banker you had to figure out how to build trust uh to engage with that consumer base to engage with Regulators I saw the exact same thing present itself with the Cannabis subject matter so not only did I I find the the subject matter itself fascinating when I started to do the research and and again Co memo coming out and and sanre gupta’s documentary in and realizing that there really is sub substantiated medical benefit to this it wasn’t just a you know wink wink nudge nudge medical cannabis it was there was tangible proof um but I saw this connectivity of well okay i’ I’ve been a part of the reform the regulatory reform of an industry on a state-by-state byst state structure with a subject matter that had a tremendous amount of negative stigma kind of know how to do this I I should also add our company was very successful at navigating from 2008 forward we we’ve scaled uh the company from about 200 employees to 3,500 employees over those 5 years by doing regulation well as a business model the regulatory tsunami that hit banking caused the vast majority of existing players in that space to truly throw their hands up and say I can’t do this anymore so that ethos of our company was we can we’re we’re going to make sure we figure out how to do regulation well as a business model um so we did and that was again an opportunity that I saw present itself with with cannabis yeah and I feel like it very much informs how so to be clear in that context you were talking about your company Guaranteed Rate right and how they can navigate that and you’re making the analogy I I would say and then maybe this can open this up to telling us more about Cresco Labs like you is your home State Illinois is that correct born here here grew up in Arizona came back for law school so I’ve been here now for 24 years again very cool very cool and cesco’s home state is Illinois as well right cesco’s home state is Illinois yeah and and again the the big reason for it is um credit to Illinois for being the author of generation 2 of cannabis which was would had a had a sincere intent to figure out how to make a real industry out of this not a wink wink nudge nudge uh medical program but a true industry that focused on doing cannabis the right way making sure that it was meeting the needs of the population that could benefit from it while at the same time having enough structure around it to where maybe the naysayers or the people who were not supportive of Reform and cannabis could look at it and say this I I understand this is a real industry this has rules this has professionalism the sky doesn’t fall and again I think is a major stepping stone to getting further reform as it relates to cannabis was we had to show that cannabis could be done right in a respectable and responsible way to allow people to say well okay what else can we do as it as it relates to to cannabis reform yeah and I see generation two of cannabis as you call it being very like uh fundamental to how Cresco does business and maybe this can springboard you into telling us if people don’t already know what is Cresco laabs how would you define your success it sounds like you credit it to maybe Gen 2 started by Illinois but wanted to give you the floor on all that so sure so again having having the the Illinois Law sort of be the onramp to our entry into the space uh Cresco was formed with the mission of helping to normalize and professionalize cannabis that was not only the opportunity that I saw for cannabis like you didn’t need to do a a demand study uh to know if cannabis as an industry could be successful been around for 5,000 plus years um even for the last few Generations while it’s been federally illegal it has still been um relatively acceptable in most Society circles so you didn’t need to know if people would actually consume cannabis uh what I saw the opportunity being was if you do it right you could make a real industry out of this and also that it would help to get um address the preconceived notions about what cannabis was and whether or not it should continue to be illegal at a federal level so really it was that structure it was the um heavily regulated compliance focused approach to cannabis which I saw not only as the opportunity for cannabis to achieve more of it uh potential but I also saw that as as my opportunity to help cannabis achieve its potential I had been through a very similar transformation of the banking IND and I had that experience that I thought could help Canabis along way in becom normalized and professionalized right and so Cresco you you know your business model is like that you seek out those highly regulated States so that you can continue that mission of professionalizing normalizing everything like that yeah certainly it’s it’s important uh I know the approach that Cresco is going to bring to any Market which is that normalized professionalized approach to doing cannabis from that perspective is is similar to any other industry where um being responsible making sure that your respected industry is critical to the success and the continuation of cannabis reform from our perspective so that is how we built the company our company is built to help normalize and professionalize the industry so we of course look for um state laws and structures that also care about that um right you know from my perspective and I’m sure we’ll get into it more that one of the one of the risks to the industry um continuing to progress would be a a lack of a responsible approach to it because then all you’re going to do is reinforce preconceived notions about whether or not cannabis should be legal you you go the other direction right right and one of the things that I see key to a few of the things you’ve mentioned um I’m a big fan of Mike fuche I don’t know if you remember him from grown in uh he was a author from with Brad spearson and he coined the phrase the fuche forces of cannabis and it was what he thought cannabis companies looked for when it came to deciding whether or not it was a good investment right so high high population which is something I’ve heard that you you know you guys look for you’re in seven of the most highly populated states I’m impressed with myself getting this off the top of my head right now um so population plays a big role in it um state regulatory environments like you say play a big role in it and one of the things I think is like fair to say is that generally speaking you’re looking for when you say highly regulated you mean not only literally highly regulated making sure that it’s a safe product but also I get the sense that it’s like another force of the M the another fuche Force I think it’s the third one is the idea of market share and how much anyone into can have of market share can you talk to me about or can you explain to our audience like why limited license markets are in attractive investment opportunities sure there and there’s a couple there’s a couple reasons and and similarly the way that we’ve uh articulated our our growth strategy for for years has been the first step is appropriate regulations um and uh our definition of appropriate regulations is a sufficient amount of of regulatory structure to where the businesses that operate within it are going to um be held to standards that will produce a responsible and respectable industry so you know from that perspective some sort of uh control on number of lenses is important because what we’ve seen um state after state is the state has to be able to wrap their arms around it too um so from that perspective and again there’s there’s um from an investment perspective there’s there’s rationale for that but also from a responsible respectable regulated uh perspective there are reasons that having a finite number of participants is very important for States you know everybody has to remember um this is a matter of first impression for everybody you know every state that comes online in what whatever form whether it’s their medical law or going from medical to adult use very rarely if ever is there anybody in that state um Administration that has experience with launching a cannabis industry um so it’s a matter of first impression for everybody for law enforcement right we we talk about from the early days of Cresco forming a stakeholder focused organization and we were very Broad in in our acknowledgement of who’s a stakeholder in cannabis everybody right it is the local community it is the school board of the nearest school to where a facility will be built and operated it is law enforcement it is the legislators and Regulators that stuck their neck out to pass this law right so there’s a lot of stakeholders who are sitting at the table that have a lot of risk and potential opportunity to get cannabis right and and as we’ve approached all of our whether it’s strategic development or operational strategies we you know your audience is a core is a core value of our company um you need to understand all of those stakeholders that are going to be impacted with how cannabis is done and you need to understand what their needs are what they need to get from Cannabis whether it’s you again it runs the the gamut um because it is a broad stakeholder base um so for us appropriate regulations kind of Encompass all of that it needs to have a sufficient amount of structure not to stifle uh competition or development or the ability to be successful so it has to be they have to be broad enough and encouraging enough to allow for a viable Market to to develop and to exist but they need to be um focused enough to make sure that a responsible and respectable industry develops in their state otherwise again the the public perception and willingness to take cannabis further goes the other direction and I would say a good example of that uh would be Oklahoma um I think Oklahoma took a fairly um almost libertarian approach to cannabis and and I could tell you the it’s another reason why Oklahoma then when adult use that’s that in their medical law and program when the adult youth question came up I think it was last year maybe the year before um it was a resounding no and that’s we don’t want to see that we want to continue to see cannabis make progress from a reform standpoint but appropriate incrementalism um from our perspective is how cannabis continues to achieve positive gains and as opposed to reinforcing preconceived notions that take us back the other direction so long story short appropriate regulations is is sort of uh requirement number one for a state for us and then we do like to match that up with um big populations that can support a robust industry from our perspective you know um not to single out any states but if you if you get cannabis right in a very very small state um it’s almost the question of if a if a tree falls in the forest and nobody’s around to hear it does it make a noise right so um we like to to again we’re trying to create a normalized and professionalized Industry we want to be in states that have sufficient population to have a robust Market we think not only is that good for the economics of being in that state but that’s how you get additional uh progress at a at a reform level for cannabis yeah yeah totally get that and you know safety and kind of public opinion aside another reason that I’ve heard operators kind of support this idea of limiting licenses is the idea to prevent price compression do you see that at all as a like a a reason that you invest in those markets or it is I would say you know there’s the there’s the respectable and responsible sort of requirements or or the goals to try and Achieve which I think regulations help for and then if you look at it from a purely economic basis um having some structure uh does allow you to create more uh forecastable and foreseeable events to occur and again I I think it it’s really important especially when a market launches and then as time goes on like we were big supporters of broadening the leny base in Illinois after we did the medical we realized um medical was successful we showed the population in Illinois and again those stakeholders that have big concerns over uh cannabis reform we showed them that the sky didn’t fall so that allowed them to say well okay maybe we can broaden this and the adult useth question got brought up which then raised other questions about well this industry isn’t very diverse and so if we’re going to broaden this and you’ve got this very unique and interesting Dynamic with this subject matter of cannabis and um disperate impacts on communities over the generations in cannabis being illegal that then also needed to be addressed so we’re we’re we’re absolutely at the Forefront and and really try to provide thought leadership on how cannabis can just continue to um progress and so in in doing so as you think about what that next gen of a a cannabis program is things like limited licenses need to be addressed also more people need to be able to come into this industry this industry has the opportunity to achieve more things than just creating a um economically viable product they also have the abil this industry is a unique opportunity to create social benefit and so that needs to be a part of its development too so we we try to be balanced if I was going to boil all of this down I would say balance is a big part of the way that we think about progress for cannabis it has to have a balanced kind of incremental approach which also makes cannabis that resp responsible respectable equals robust that’s kind of an equation we talk about internally all the time responsible plus respectable equals robust that’s how we’d like to see programs develop yeah and the reason I ask about price compression it’s something that that uh like I say many operators have brought up even our governor JB pritzker brought up at Ivy Hall when he got a question he said you know I know some people write or talk about in the media that maybe we should have just opened up the licenses now what I mean to say is I know that there are people who write about this that there are other states that have opened up the number of licenses to hundreds and hundreds of lenes uh and they have more dispensaries open than we do he said something to the effect of the truth is we’ve limited the number of licenses so that the social Equity candidates don’t get edged out until the very end but the reality is that we’ve limited the number of lenses in part because we wanted to make sure that the social Equity Li lies had a fair shot in the industry and they weren’t just edged out to the very end uh and by you know having too many dispensaries in the market so that people can’t make money which is something we’ve seen in other happen in other states you know what I mean like you say Oklahoma Oregon I’ve even interviewed the uh he was the uh head regulator at OLCC I don’t believe he is anymore uh Steve Marx and he spoke about exactly this you know they issued so many license buiness and a lot of people went out of business one of the things though that I did ask him and it wasn’t the first time he’s been asked this question I saw Vice asked him the question but I wanted to ask him it a few years later you know was do you regret that approach and he was honest with me that he’s like well I’m the regulator so like I didn’t create this approach I’m just appointed with regulating it but if you’re asking me my personal opinion he said I don’t think we should have or I would would have done it differently because while all those things did happen and I don’t wish financial hardship on anybody at least people knew what they were getting into and had the chance to do that you know what I mean and to just make a comparison to another industry like we seem to accept the fact that 80% of restaurants go out of business within the first five years and I get the regulatory points that you just brought up but yeah it is interesting to me sometimes to hear price compression or people going out of business being used as a talking point for limited licenses it’s like I totally understand the rationale you know keeping prices consistent so that it’s easier on operators but I guess just to close my thought here and I’m curious what you think I’ve boiled it down to this it’s like I feel like the only people that are complaining about open markets like that are people that have to compete in open markets and the people that aren’t complaining are cannabis consumers that are getting their cannabis at a cheap and affordable price so uh love the discussion and I we could spend hours on it and and again I think this is a this is a great point of why I still think just as I did in 2013 that cannabis is the most fascinating thing that I’ve ever seen and probably will be for the rest of my life like the the whole the whole free market discussion is another fascinating sort of thread to pull on in this and the only thing I would I would add to it is what what we have to acknowledge is all of the facets of cannabis the fact that we are currently federally illegal right so it’s not like we’re talking there’s there’s uniqueness to this discussion and debate especially as it relates to free market and the way to do this right so if we go back to the the foundation of of kind of who I am and and what I started Cresco to be which is uh an advocate that helps to normalize and professionalize the industry and as I just was talking about too this equation that we talk about all the time internally is responsible plus respectable equals robust so if I’m thinking about how to create the best outcome for cannabis possible over time there ha a free market approach to it from a starting from a point of federal illegality to me is is tough to see how that will result in the uh best outcome for cannabis going forward I personally think that a um uh a total free market approach to it will ensure that you don’t see more progress at a legal level federally or in states that don’t have it now for them to progress with reform as it relates to cannabis and if I think about the downside risk to what that means if I think about the criminal justice impact that we’ve seen for Generations that outcome is a is a is a bad scenario for cannabis right so I I think there needs to be like come with several you know a lot of uh Industries especially ones that have um uh intoxication as a component to it um even if they’re not starting from a point of federal illegality uh there needs to be some structure there needs need to be some rules around it there needs to be some control um who is it Freedman that says even even free market needs a a a coach or a trainer it’s there was a I’m getting the quote butchering the quote refer right but even a free market needs some help in assisting it along to make sure that it could be as successful as possible and that’s how I feel about it so but that that conversation and that debate is absolutely viable and should continue to happen as states and the federal government continue to think about this there’s there’s a reason why what do we have 40 States now that have some form of really truly real viable medical or adult use law yeah and every single one of them is different than the other um some are very similar but they’re all none of them are exactly the same because there are these different perspectives on how to pull on these levers and and get it right to create the best outcome for cannabis in that state um but yeah like I know the answer is not having uh two lenses in an entire state that own the whole market right in the same way that I know the right answer also is not free-for-all no limits no rules go for it I know neither one of those is the right answer I think the right answer is somewhere in that middle 80% the 10% on the extremes on both sides I feel are not the right answers the right answer is somewhere in that 80% middle yeah yeah well thank you for getting into that and I’ll just close with saying because some people will ask me because I talk about this particular subject a lot um some people have asked me do you talk about limited licenses a lot because you’re upset that you couldn’t get into the market and I was like no no actually it has to do with from the people I’ve interviewed and that’s what I I just want to be clear other people do complain about limited license markets because like they couldn’t get their ticket in and such which I I think we could both probably you know uh have some empathy for because it’s like that sucks well in the same respect as people who argue for it maybe people who only see success with regulatory Moes to compete in yeah um so again I think those are you’re going to have those perspectives on both ends of the extreme and that’s actually what I was going to talk about I don’t know what some people mean when they reference regulatory moat but what I hear and what I’ve spoken to with like uh attorneys and such it’s like the idea that at least in Illinois and it seems to be pretty consistent across all states the enforcement mechanism for these systems aren’t similar to and I’m a Layman I’ve not been in many different sectors so if you know more about this what I’m about to say than me feel free to jump in on this but like just to bring up restaurants again or even like a liquor store if I was doing that without a license I might be hit with a business fine and maybe they’d be pretty serious you know because depending it’s almost like a um what’s the word I’m looking for uh relative to the harm it could cause to uh community so Public Safety element right right so we have to take that into effect but the main thing that I’m thinking of that I just find troubling with any of these systems so far it just seems that the criminal law is still the answer if you don’t have a license like it’s not just a business infraction it’s the criminal justice system um and like I say I’ve talked to several attorneys about that one actually that was going to be at the Cresco Labs Training Center attorney Bob G gtra okay and um I’m just curious what you think of of that do you think that because it just seems that especially in Illinois if we’ve said that the War on Drugs was an issue and we have these social Equity Provisions that are meant to almost not reconcile but address what’s happened we’re like acknowledging this cycle but we’re continuing it in our enforcement I feel like what do you think about that idea I think you’re you’re totally right which again takes me back to that point of the free market discussion when you’re starting from a point of being illegal yeah that has to come into um the conversation on how you think you can uh create the best outcome uh possible for cannabis which is a reason that you have to you have to have some guidelines you have to have some some some boundaries you have to have some rules to get change from your from the current point that you’re starting from so even if it’s incremental and it’s it’s um can still create the scenario where there can be bad outcomes where there can still be enforcement when there’s a legal structure for it it is the pathway to making that that change that we all want to get to which is a more normalized again responsible respectable robust industry um but I I do believe that that is cannabis I I think is always going to be a regulated industry I don’t I don’t Envision a scenario because to your point even restaurants uh have regulatory requirements there are public health and safety obligations that come with being yeah a a an owner of a restaurant or or preparing food for individuals um I think when you when you add the intoxicating component of cannabis now you are in that realm of whether it’s alcohol or or or other sort of um you know Pharmaceuticals over the counter or otherwise you’re you’re in the more regulated than less regulated nature and that’s always going to come with structure that’s always going to come with obligations and hurdles and and um uh whether it’s licensing or otherwise there’s going to be requirements in order to participate in the space and and therefore there needs to be some enforcement of that requirement but getting it right is there’s no perfect answer right now for sure and the opportunity the obligation that all of us have is to just keep making sure that cannabis progresses on this responsible and respectable path to get as close to uh robust and and Equitable industry as we can yeah and I think that that you may have similar thoughts on this topic but so setting like kind of business aside there are also other regulations that I I actually think I watched J pritzker’s first speech like where he was saying I’m going to sign this bill like it’s it’s going to be great and was kind of explaining it all uh Senators Cassidy and stain a representative Cassidy and Senator stain stains uh gave comments on the matter and one of the things he mentioned was uh safety safety was also a critical Dimension that needed to be addressed for Illinois families as a parent myself I had to know that all Illinois children would be safe if we moved forward with this we brought together medical experts and stakeholders like lur children’s hospital and Illinois Public Health institutes to develop regulations that protect the health of our children and our families adult use cannabis will only include those 21 and Over the program also includes regulation on potency and possession limits like the idea that possession limits for Public Safety and I’m just curious like like liquor stores the only thing that’s stopping me from buying out the store is like what’s in my bank account or my credit card limit or maybe even what I can haul away in that trip like can I fit it all on my vehicle like that’s the only requirement and uh when I go to one of your stores I can only buy like a certain amount I’m just curious as a company like I know again you’ll probably say something the effect of like well we need to be careful about this you know so I I kind of like get that perspective but also like I don’t mean to say that you’re trying to sell as much we as you can but let’s be real like you’re trying to sell and I mean that’s the business right so what do you think about possession limits and really what I’m asking is like at the face of possession limits which I think I might know how you feel about it but then it’s also interesting you exceed that possession limit and here again criminal law comes back into the effect it’s the um it’s the the benefit and the downside of incremental ISM uh right in furtherance of where we’re starting from and where we’re trying to get to the I would say the the main priorities at any state um is trying to achieve when they’re coming up with the laws and the rules and regulations to comply with they’re trying to address the fears or the preconceived notions of people who who don’t think anything should change right so Public Safety and public health are historically are the top two things uh I would say with um more recent States addressing adult use now the third thing in there is social responsibility and addressing disperate impact of the application of Prior drug laws right so that’s kind of that third top priority so if you look at it from the perspective of those three main priorities that a state is trying to address to show that this can be done the right way way you end up with some limitations you end up with obligations and you end up with limitations because they need to they need to show that the structure um addresses the concerns of the anti- reformists and the co memo right and again again I love the name um because you could argue that uh if he tried to put up a structure right he he identified here’s what we care about at the doj yeah these eight things very reasonable um and if a state can design a regulatory structure that addresses our eight priorities we’ve got bigger and better things to do which in the context of this question one of his main eight things is preventing Interstate trafficking and maybe you could argue that if if I come from another state and just can purchase Untold quantities that then that’s like a direct violation of the co memo because you know what I mean like well what I would say is I think there’s there’s more evidence of that being the case than the alternative which is I should be able to have for my personal consumption as much as I want right my limit should only be be sort of set by the amount of money I have in my bank account and in the early States you absolutely saw that type of opportunity I think in Colorado in particular where the The Possession limits or the amount that you could buy um was on a per visit um perspective so you had people just kind of walking in walking back to their car putting the back the car come yeah looping and a lot of that resulted in product um being resold from that point forward so again just until we’ve shown that that responsible and respectable approach addresses the concerns of the anti-reform ists sufficiently where there’s a balance um you’re going to continue to see an effort to provide that type of structure that could be seen as responsible and respective yeah well to switch gear years a little bit here uh I as I said on my way up here I was listening to some of uh older interviews you’ve done and one interview I watched you uh were talking about the recent passage of the farm bill and I saw you had made some comments about the farm bill again recently it benzinga but I found it interesting one of the things you said was something to the effect of you know this farm bill it allows for CBD CU that’s all that was happening at the time that’s how old that interview was that I was watching um and you were mentioning that it it might be a good opportunity for Cresco to get into non-legal States or even uh storefronts that you traditionally wouldn’t find a cannabis based product because this is what the farm bill allows for in other words CVS yeah Walgreens something like that and you were talking about how it’s not only a good opportunity to get more people or consumers exposed to it but also a great opportunity to get the brand out let’s shift gears a little bit to the farm bill in the states act so I guess you got listed in around the same time that the farm bill um came through in December how was that how how’s that affected you how will it affect you how will it affect your your plans going forward and then we can talk a little bit about the state’s act uh so I’ll take the farm um you know as as it relates to the Core Business of Cresco Labs really didn’t uh it doesn’t touch on it right it’s it’s dealing with hemp Drive CBD which um for the most part we’re licensed and we operate in in the um State regulated THC cannabis markets that said um what this is sort of changing landscape in that CBD specifically with regard to hemp Drive CBD has created for us as an opportunity to um reach a consumer base that either doesn’t live in a state that has a legal cannabis program yet or isn’t comfortable with the idea of THC as a cannabinoid based product but is willing to try CBD as a first cannabinoid based product for them or if they’re still that you know comfortable there even if they do live in states that have um licensed dispensaries maybe they don’t want to go into a dispensary um they’d like to try something that’s available in CVS walg grain and Whole Foods so then we started looking at it again from the perspective of a very um brand focused uh organization and consumer products focused organization and realized that this opportunity not only to create a a CBD based uh brand called wellbe beings is the brand that we’re creating um but to also bring our portfolio our house of Brands um that are appropriate like a Cresco like a remedy and like Mindy’s and do hemp derive CBD versions of them and now we can get our house of Brands the majority of the brands in our house we can get them in front of those consumers today as opposed to when their laws change or when Cresco actually becomes an operator in those States we can get that mind share today which is pretty incredible if you consider consider you know I think C estimates this is going to be an $80 billion industry by 2030 I think we’re about a 12 11 or 12 billion industry now that next $68 billion worth of consumer um that’s not from current customers consuming more that’s from a new consumer based coming in and this gives us a nice cross Channel opportunity to introduce ourselves to them today I recently read a tweet and I want to find it really quick uh I think I have it pretty close here I’m just curious what you think about this idea this is just much better said than what I can say uh off the top of my head a person said just talk to a bank that will take deposits from and provide funding for Farm Bill authorized businesses including THC hemp between that the farm bill extension and state prohibitions on hemp being decimated in court the hemp space is almost irresistible is it irresistible to you and and I ask this knowing that uh cookies a very well-known brand brand is just leaning right into it and getting their brand on shelves and states that you can’t yeah um is that attra is that an attractive idea so unfortunately my answer to that would be it depends right so it’s a it’s a very real um conversation that I think is is really heated up here in the last six to nine months um if you go back to why I got into the history and the the opportunity that I see from it right to to finally create um legislative and Regulatory reform that is seen as progress for cannabis to help normalize and professionalize cannabis which has been again illegal for generations and created um disastrous outcomes uh for a lot of people in communities because of its illegality it it it it not only forces me but that’s why I lean into responsible equals respectable equals robust I see that as the way of creating progress not only for the economic opportunities that lie within this industry but for the reform opportunities that that can be created through the industry done right that the farm bill um as drafted and kind of as being um applied right now this you need an you need an answer we we need clarification on whether or not um the opportunity to create intoxicating products from hemp is going to continue to be seen by some because it’s not by all that’s you know you have this distinction some states say no some some parts of you have the legislative branches saying technically by the language here I’m seeing the point of whether you claim it’s poorly drafted or that wasn’t the intent that that’s what the language says right on the other side of that you have the DEA saying we still consider it a schedule one we still consider it federally illegal you have the FDA coming out recently and reaffirming so now you’ve got federal agencies disagreeing with court that is not what I think progress for cannabis looks like right so I would say yes though if I was going to give a short answer to that if if the um perceived loophole or or opportunity that’s created by the current version of the farm bill is not changed I would say then it’s possible that um the federal government may have inadvertently legalized intoxicating products derived from the Cannabis sativa plant and I could tell they absolutely did not think they were doing that right that’s my concern with it right that’s why I I I it’s an ongoing conversation internally of whether or not that’s an opportunity for us is I just want Clarity on it um but if in fact that is you’re able to produce intoxicating products from what is technically a hemp plant uh then I do think I think it challenges um existing cannabis state laws and programs that have been put in place because you could have the same product being sold across the street at an unlicensed unregulated traditional retail storefront um this industry would not be able to compete with that uh full stop you you can’t have uh an industry that has to comply with licensing requirements the cost of Licensing the cost of Regulatory Compliance add on top of that x% excise tax add on top of that that we’re deemed federally illegal from uh the federal government’s perspective uh as a schedule one that puts 28 IRC 28e on top of us you can’t have that industry can’t possibly compete um with an identical product truly identical being sold at a store that doesn’t have to pay for a state license doesn’t have to comply with state regulatory structures and the cost of those doesn’t have to pay that excise tax can take credit cards can raise Capital can go public on us exchanges doesn’t have 280e can file uh copyrights and stuff absolutely so one way or another these two things have to be reconciled so it might be uh an incredible opportunity that can’t be ignored or that could change and things shift back over to here my desire from all of it is to get clarity yeah and again have this this subject matter as a whole whether that is right or wrong with that language and the interpretation of the language and that opportunity that creates my desire would still be though then okay whatever it is that if you if you if your business is in that realm you have to you have to accept and incorporate the obligation to be responsible and respectable because if you’re not then all you’re going to do is is make the naysayers right um entrench them in their position and stifle the opportunity to get the reform that all of us want for cannabis right right so it sounds like you’re basically saying if the if was a little bit more of a firm foundation under that and not so much of it cuz like you say I’ve seen those things from the DEA and the FDA and there it’s I mean like you say yeah the language of the law seems very clear but when you have other people with some pretty big Authority saying we don’t see it that way it’s like do I want to step on that Lily Pad is and the issue is the people who are saying it we don’t see it that way in that legislative branch they’re so job is to interpret that language right and and sort of enforce what that language says not to try and understand or incorporate intent um and when those two things are at odds that is a lily pad that you don’t want to step on because you could just see that you could see a change coming and you don’t want to you don’t want to be subject to it it’s again I I reiterate though the responsible and respectable part of that is really important to to me because uh if not done in a responsible and respectable way you you significantly um limit the amount of Reform that we will then get um at a federal or further state level yeah and uh I just saw a tweet this morning from um Kevin sbet are you familiar with Kevin seet so Kevin and I Kevin has had a a few of H people a few people from his team on my show actually just one person several times he’s actually about my age so it’s kind of funny I recently went went to Washington DC to uh meet him I wanted to since we’ve talked about some naysayers and everything I wanted to talk about something that he tweeted this morning and see if you had any thoughts on it just because it’s a quote that President Obama made and it he’s using it it seems to talk about companies like yours and i’ I’d be interesting to interested to hear uh your thoughts on that uh but I just thought to close out since I just rang up my podcast she said that you definitely are but I was just curious when I met you are you were you actually familiar with a Illinois podcast or were you just being nice no no absolutely yeah um how did you how did you hear about it and this is just me patting myself on the back because I was like was he just being nice to me or did he actually know about my show so no I I I think you’ve got uh you’ve got a big listener base and I think the name also is a very both of your names now the former name and the new name are very very uh memorable yeah um so yeah no you you’ve you’ve established yourself well awesome that that was just for me sorry folks um well in the spirit uh just before I go to uh critics and everything else one of the things that I’ve said on my show for the longest time is that people within the Cannabis industry like companies like yours and others that I won’t name I view them as and I think in many ways the discussions we’ve had today show that you are but I I think that companies like these should be at the front of the uh line for advancing which is like what you’ve been talking about this whole time you’re talking about being very mindful of how you move forward because you don’t want past perceived Notions to like kind of take hold and derail this train right um I’m curious do you view things like the continued decriminalization of cannabis or specifically things like homeg grow is something that Cresco will ever explicitly support and I say that knowing that I think I saw a tweet that Cresco made a few years ago where they did support uh a by via tweet a a homow initiative like hey we support this initiative we have no problem with it but I’m just curious sort of litmus testing you here oh yeah no explicitly we support hom grow but I guess what I’m asking is I I’ve been trying to make the pitch to people in the future you know I don’t know what legislative changes you might push for in the future maybe it’ll be things like the the hemp the hemp uh conversation that we’ve had I know a lot of people are pushing for a conversation like that um but one thing that I’ve always found in cannabis especially after states legalize is that people just come apathetic to the idea of continued progress and Norway is a great example of that um or Amsterdam uh you know you can get cannabis and Cannabis shops it’s been a gimmick for years it was part of a heral and Kumar movie right most people in nor uh in Amsterdam I don’t know why I keep saying that um I’m honestly not very good on geography either so so I’m not going to sit here and act like it but anyways uh they view the issue of cannabis legalization as kind of over because you can just get it at coffee shops and I’m just curious like to kind of round out my question I felt like a way that companies like yours could get some like BigTime support from the community is pairing something you want with something that the community wants so it’s like then then they have a reason to call their representatives and be like yeah let’s get these cannabis companies this thing and and also there’s a really good consumer component that gives us hom grow I don’t know if you’ve just ever considered that uh and I’ve just been trying to plant that seed in every cannabis company that I talked to pun intended yeah uh to like kind of pair their proposals with something that’s consumer-driven like how else are you going to get the energy you know 100% so kind of looking at those potentially two different things I would say or two complimentary ways yeah I think we’re you’re always seeing an attempt to package um cannabis reform with Benefits that come from it outside of the industry right that’s you it’s usually impetus of a excise tax right is then the excise tax can be used for this right and in Illinois you see a big part of the excise tax goes to communities most desperately impacted by the war on right so there’s these social components and others other states have focused more on uh school funding or or or substance abuse progress so there’s always a um that broader stakeholder Focus to show it’s not just legalizing weed for sale it is creating a socially responsible approach to creating a new industry and and at the same time uh cannabis reform homeg grow uh is is for sure a part of that and I think um for one reason or another it’s not it’s not um uh I don’t see lack of reason behind it there’s been a perception that like the companies that are involved in the industry are anti homow seen as competition I I’m I don’t know of any company in the industry who’s actually against homow for competitive reasons um you can make your own beer at home uh you can grow your own Tomatoes at home you do all you it’s I think the the concern or the again the the thing to just consider as that conversation happens is everything that I’ve said so far about being rooted in responsible and respectable equals where we want to get to um that you have to address the concerns that the naysayers currently have and so um sort of an unfettered opportunity to grow outside of the regulated structure where things don’t have to be track and traced and don’t have to be sold through license that’s the concern that anybody I think from my perspective or others would have about homow is it just can’t challenge or jeopardize the feeling that this structure of cannabis in that state is responsible and respectable yeah um so that I think the concern just comes from the kind of commercialization opportunity that could arise if hom grow developed into that size or scale that’s where concern happens so it’s not about being able to grow at home it’s not about the competitive nature with the industry it’s as if the approach to Hom grow would jeopardize the program or the reform to be seen as responsible or respectable that’s where that conversation then really needs to focus is where’s that limit yeah and does I’m curious does that get old because that’s the that’s the one thing I always see and I’ve even it’s been said on my show before um people will say the big companies they don’t want hom grow I’m just curious candidly like do you ever see that you’re just like Jesus you know are you just like whatever as I said it’s not I I understand it I understand how it could be perceived that way but it’s again I don’t I don’t know anybody who is concerned about hom grow for competitive purposes yeah yeah and just on that note to to close out that topic I view hom grow is something that could be viewed as an asset by some of your companies it’s uh by not having homow uh your talent pool has been decreased yeah and just the general like if if um if falls under the umbrella of responsible and respectable I think then it also achieves the goal of normalizing the subject matter right so that’s so I’m I’m in favor of it as long as it doesn’t um cross a Tipping Point where it is seen as irresponsible um and then jeopardizes the ability of cannabis to continue to progress with reform yeah to your point I showed my grandma one of my cannabis plants and it was something for her to like see it in its natural form and not just you know en rolled in a joint round up oh this is just a plant I mean it helps to normalize it yeah yeah so anyways um you know I promise Charlie didn’t provide this to me but Cresco liquid live resin is one of my favorite Vape pins nice and I’m just curious I think we kind of already addressed this earlier and then I’ll actually close out the show with that tweet I wanted to read to you um I really bite the bullet when I buy these things in Illinois but if I’ve ever been in Michigan they’re like 30 bucks a pop is that just a result of like the differences in markets or like what’s you know what I mean some people see that here in Illinois they’ll look at a menu of a dispensary up in Michigan they’ll be Jesus Christ this highest Supply product that’s here for this price it’s this for that in this state you know yeah it’s it is a byproduct of um the state-by-state nature of the industry and like as we talked about already like no structure is identical as another structure and and look you could see in in a state like Michigan this is where you get into that that middle 80% discussion on how to do this the right way as i’ said like I I don’t think either either extreme to the 10% on either side is the right way to do it somewhere in that middle 80 is is where you have to pull on the levers to create the right type of program that that state wants um there is pricing in Michigan is significantly lower than it is in a state like Illinois because the regulatory requirements are significantly Less in in Michigan there’s also a lot more competitors so there is that natural traditional supply and demand economic discussion that happens there but I would also say that there’s um there the other side of that coin is also there’s less control um in Michigan there is more of a perception that there is a gray market and a regulated market coexisting with each other I think you’ll find less support from naysayers who look at that Michigan model and say yeah I’m comfortable with that as opposed to looking at a regulatory structure like Illinois saying yeah I’m comfortable with that right so all all of these things kind of interplay with each other and since product cannot cross state lines that’s why you’re going to see pricing differences on one side of a state line than the other if they actually abut with each other um because the the regulatory structure of each state is going to impact the pricing structure of the products yeah let alone the tax rates the that’s the other thing the excise tax rates on top of just cost of production U make meaningful impacts yeah and I want to strongly reiterate break the third wall I’m looking right at the camera uh what Charlie just said like the state line thing and federal uh bringing it between states that’s a big no no so folks don’t do that I have to ask that really quick you’re aware a lot of people go to Michigan uh for their cannabis and frankly a lot of people still buy Cresco when they go there let’s just set the law aside and obviously we’re giving it our only legal advice would be folks don’t do that because that’s in direct violation of the co memo and state law as well sure but I’m just curious because I think you even acknowledged this in benzinga like is that something that you guys have conversations about like ah crap all these people are going to Michigan because it’s a bit like it’s a big trend of people going there for affordable cannabis the I would say the way that we talk about it is um from a state State competitive dynamic because you take Michigan out of the equation Missouri right where you do share a state boundary line one you know you could you could have a scenario where a 100 yards away from each other you got a store on one side of the one state and a store on the other state and and if a state structure creates such a distinction again balancing this is the puzzle to solve it’s there’s no perfect answer to this but but when you have a scenario where um taxes are so significantly Less in one state than another where you are going to create this this weird dynamic between very similar products or identical products produced by the same company but sold on on in different regulatory structures on either side of the state line that’s a dynamic that the states need to think about and they need to address and again the Comfort level you have to layer on so many extra components other than just purely economic um you have to where’s the Comfort level in um regulatory oversight I don’t know that Illinois is going to be willing to reduce or should it I I’m not weighing even in I’m not even weighing in on what Illinois should or shouldn’t do from a regulatory and rule-based compliance standpoint because this is what got legislators in Illinois comfortable with passing the law was X types of security uh and surveillance obligations and why types of uh track and Trace systems to make sure that we weren’t um diverting product because that from their perspective that was what was needed to create responsible and respectable um but the simple things like tax rates are things that the states absolutely have to have to face if you’ve got a 10% tax on one side of the border and a 35% tax on the other side of the Border just know you’re going to have people crossing state lines to buy very similar products from companies yeah um but the state has to address that and when you just said that I didn’t realize that this is not a new issue I’ve heard of people going from like in going to Indiana to get cigarettes Wisconsin Illinois and where do you buy your fireworks yeah right exactly exactly so uh well hey to close I wanted to ask you about this quote uh from Kevin sbet but I also want to give full context because he has a tendency to not do that um can edly uh President Barack Obama said in an interview in 2014 that it’s up to Congress to remove uh Canabis from the federal government’s list of most serious narcotics implying but not explicitly saying that he might support such a move um he said I stand by my belief based I think on the scientific evidence that marijuana for casual users individual users is subject to abuse just like alcohol is and should be treated as a public health problem and challenge um as I said in my interview my concern is when you have end up having heavy criminal penalties for individual users that have been applied unevenly and in some cases with a racial disparity so that’s his concern now the quote that Kevin shared a little bit out of context I felt like that part was really important for context because it’s establishing that uh it seemingly as the article said Barack Obama was supportive of it setting that aside this is the quote that was shared um I do offer a cautionary note those who think legalization is a Panacea I think they have to ask themselves some tough questions too because if we start having a situation where big corporations with a lot of resources and distribution and marketing arms are suddenly going out there pedaling marijuana then the levels of abuse that may take place are going to be higher sorry for my animated in reading that quote but uh I’m just I want you to take that on how do you uh respond to a concern like that I think um I think it really does put a bow on everything that we’ve talked about so far yeah right there there’s there are so many components um and questions that have to be asked in the way that you you deal with cannabis reform um there are so many stakeholders that are sitting at this table that are going to be impacted by these decisions or in decisions right we can’t for we can’t forget about the Legacy that we have here over the last few generations and the impact of the criminality of cannabis but you also have to look at the decriminalising to figure out how to do that not necessarily right and maybe I say to do cannabis right um maybe I shouldn’t say that um do cannabis better I don’t know that there’s a a a correct answer to how to do it right there definitely ways that we can do it better than we currently do it and and I I continue to see the North Stars as responsible and respectable being what we’re trying to achieve and that in and of itself creates that robust industry but that’s that’s where rules and regulations come into play yeah you can lean into them too hard or you can not lean into them hard enough and and both of those scenarios will have repercussions uh so I I just look forward to being part of the the discussion I think that’s what I’m um I’m happiest uh about with what what Cresco has been able to achieve over the last 10 years I mean we’re 10 years deep in this now which is we have created a seat at the table um and with our mission of normalizing and professionalizing it continues to be what we’re trying to achieve I think you’re you’re you’re right like context is really important to that quote and I think that is sometimes unfortunately um fairly almost partisan is perspectives on this issue tend to cherry-pick or or um not have context included in the data points or the perspectives that they share um but it’s a it’s not an easy uh amount of questions there’s so many that have to be answered I just like being part of the discussion helping to share what we’ve learned operating in 10 states um things that we’ve seen States get right things that we’ve seen States get wrong yeah let’s not forget everybody like when the way that Illinois was able to pass that compassionate usack back in the day um that regulated nature of it is what sparked my interest uh otherwise I wouldn’t have gotten into the industry um I didn’t get into the industry to sell weed I got into the industry to help develop a normalized professionalized responsible robust industry um but there’s there’s ways to to do that right and to do that wrong figuring out that middle 80% is the key love that we’re part of that discussion yeah and just more specifically this is my last question I feel like what he was directly implying and what they’ve said on my show I like having people on that I might disagree with because frankly I come out of the conversation usually believing stronger in in what I believe in or maybe I have my mind changed about certain things I don’t know that’s the value I find in those conversations what he didn’t say here and what I think he’s saying and what they’ve said in the past is that that cannabis companies like Cresco I don’t know if they’ve ever named you but cannabis companies are are just addiction for profit that’s that’s really what I was looking for your response on I mean do you do you think that’s fair do you think that’s a little I I think it’s like you could say that about um that might just be a a comment on corporations in general and you’re applying it to this industry or he’s applying it to this industry just like it could be applied to any industry um right I’m a big fan of uh Mark benof who’s the the CEO of Salesforce um his philosophy is uh corporations can be the largest uh Catalyst for uh as positive change agents as anything else and I think um I find a ton of value in that because it all just depends on the approach that the corporation is bringing to the issue um I think uh business and corporations get a lot of publicity on sort of the the ways that maybe uh it could be seen as negatively using their bargaining power or influence to create seemingly um things that are good for them and not good for anybody else and furtherance of profitability for shareholders right and that’s why we we rarely you’ll hear me refer to shareholders uh in as much as I refer to stakeholders um because it’s there’s there’s a broader there’s a broader um pool of impacted um invested uh people in this space and in in Cresco in general and I think this industry in particular rewards a more comprehensive more robust view on on how you create um value for stakeholders that’s why I think he his comment I absolutely think is is exactly what you’re interpreting it to be I don’t know if he’s necessarily talking about like companies like Cresco or GTI or trulle because at the end of the day we’re not big filling the blank anything he’s also talking about big tobacco big alcohol and big Pharma who invariably will likely want to be in this space and learning from maybe negative um events that have happened in those Industries over the generations so but you know Kevin is um he comments quite a bit on on uh this industry and uh he’s entitled to his opinions yeah yeah that’s fair well Charlie uh thank you for sitting down with me on the memo did you I know we talked about a lot of serious really got into it but did you have fun this morning I did no this is a great great format great conversation again Co memo is a is a pretty important part of my life uh and now I get to say that I’ve been on the co memo yeah uh podcast which is pretty cool yeah and I hope this isn’t the last time I’d love to do this again sometime in the future and uh look I think there’s going to be a lot of things that happen over the next 12 to 24 months that are are conversation worthy so uh be up for it anytime yeah and I guess just a parting note I’ll make sure to put this in the uh beginning of the episode because I feel like it’s professional of me to do so but I’m actually an owner of Cresco believe it or not just like uh I I have some stock in Cresco I think it’s like $40 worth so it’s not a lot thank you for your support hey I’m just you know visiting my headquarters you know I’m just trying to be funny uh here but uh yeah just for full disclosure here like I say I’ll put that at the bumper at the front of the episode but I I meant to mention that earlier I’ve been an investor for a few years now and like I say not a not a huge sum but what I could afford appreciate the support yeah absolutely cool well folks I hope you found as much value in this episode as I did Charlie thank you so much thank you look forward to the next one yes absolutely cool that was a blast and I just a a little bit overtime just about 15 minutes over time so thank you for being uh absolutely flexible with that you know what’s cool is um about a year ago I got to uh meet Jim Cole oh really now I have I have a relationship with him he’s like uh you know we talk uh fairly regularly and he’s still engaged in this really which is cool it wasn’t just it wasn’t just some you know Fly by Night thing that he was asked to put out on this it was thoughtful um there was intention behind it and he still has uh not only his view on this and again it kind of It kind of was really influential for me back in the day so it’s not surprised that it’s still resonates with me a very similar view on this of it just needs to be done in a responsible way and he feels like these are sort of the things that states and stakeholders should be thinking about as they continue to think about cannabis and the legality of it is you don’t want it falling into the hands of kids you don’t want organized crime involved in it you you got to you got to be careful that you you do this in a responsible and respectable way and if that’s done perfect right and uh it’s cool to still have him engaged he’s still influential too you know I mean when yeah whole memo is referenced so often when he calls up somebody and and wants to talk to them about it they take the call yeah and they engage with them so well whenever I uh inevitably reach out to him for an interview I will be I’m mentioning that I had Steve marks on my show cuz he mentioned he knew uh Jim as well and I’ll plug your episode too and be like I had Charlie on so familiar faces let me know if you want any a lead into the to the conversation in the ass sure yeah no I was uh I was going to more bluntly ask that in the future but for now I was just fling that yeah let know when you’re ready I’ll reach out to him and that be cool let him know you’re you’re going to call I think he’ll probably be like honored that there’s a show named after what he’s done when the cool thing was is in having that conversation with him and I’m like well you know in in um provision two of The Well of your memo um you know me it was like I have to call it your memo bizarre that’s hilarious that’s hilarious well cool man again all right this was awesome thank you for being so charitable with your time too uh I as you may know I do the long format podcast so I’m always appreciative when I can get people to fit that long format now he great G’s great Co I’ll be just a bit to give this stuff out of your office but do you want me to hit stop on this at all or keep it going uh yeah yeah if you don’t mind and do you mind if I keep since that was still going do you mind if I release that as like a behind the scenes thing what you just said about Jim Cole not it was a cool story right for sure for sure cool