In this episode, we interview Torrin, a former shift manager at two Nevada brothels, who shares her experiences, highlighting both the positive and negative aspects of her time in the industry.
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Links mentioned during show
- TheColeMemo.com/Sex
- Purchase Torrin’s new book “Behind the Pole” here
The auto-generated transcript is below.
hello everybody this is episode seven in my series on the legal sex industry in America more specifically I’ve been talking about licensed prostitution in Nevada if you’d like to see the episodes that have been released to date just go to the memo.com seex once again that’s the memo.com sex and you can see all of the episodes that have been released to date this conversation was recorded sometime in November of 2022 and features the perspective of torren Torin relle who actually wrote this book and uh since the episode’s recording this book has come out uh I’ve personally not read it yet but torren sent me a copy and I will read a note that she gave me Cole you gave us a voice when nobody else would and for that I am grateful thank you and I know you will go far love Toren so if you’d like to get this book which is it’s called behind the pole the truth about exotic dancing I will have a link in the podcast description so that you can purchase this book and support torren most of this conversation is Audio Only I’ll pop in from time to time to fact check myself and to show some videos that we reference during the conversation you’re listening to the Cole memo I’m your host Cole Preston every episode is released in audio video in transcript format to find the transcript audio or video version of any episode please refer to the description of the episode that you’re listening to now within that description you can find a link that will take you to our website which will display the transcript for this episode and the platforms where you can find this episode in audio or video formats if you’re unable to locate the episode description on whichever platform you’re listening from Simply note the episode number and visit thecolememo.com from there you can find the corresponding episode and then you’ll be able to access the audio video and transcript version of that episode you might also find any links that we reference during the episode so that you might be able to do your own research if you’re not listening to this episode of the The Cole Memo on Patreon then you are listening to this episode later than our patrons to become a patron go to thecolememo.com/patreon once again that’s thecolememo.com/patreon it’s a great way to support our show one of the best ways to support our show is absolutely free subscribe to or follow our show leave us a positive review from wherever you’re listening to us from favorite this episode give it a thumbs up leave a comment or post a review your engagement and support is appreciated once again I hope that you enjoy this episode of the coal memo today if I hadn’t mentioned it already I think I did is December 22nd 2023 and I originally recorded this conversation pretty sure I mentioned this already but just once again I originally recorded this conversation sometime in November of 2022 enjoy this episode of the [Music] colan Toren thank you so much for sitting down with me today um we’re talking about legal sex work afan America specifically Nevada and um you have experience in that and uh why don’t you go ahead and uh I guess tell us about your experience in the legal sex industry and then we can get into uh you know the meat and potatoes of our conversation today okay well first off I was a shift manager um for Dennis H the late Dennis Hoff he had a four brothel and a cabaret in my area Northern Nevada I worked at two of them as shift managers and I I can tell you right now you know it was very I was very poor the pay was poor and I stayed because it’s hard to find a job in this area without commuting but I can you know I’ll follow your lead but I can tell you some of the stuff I’ve SE i’ I’ve seen with uh staff abuse and you you know the way some of the girls were treated and how they got stuck there yeah well you you already answered the first question I have for you so yeah I think we can segue right into that the first question I was going to have for you is how did you get into it it sounds like it was the closest option for you yeah I I used to commute to work and and I have a son and I went to job connect and they they’re the ones that kind of roped me into it you know they made it sound really glamorous like I was going to make a lot of money the only thing that kept me there was we got to work four 12 hour shifts in a row and then we had four days off that is if you shut your phone off because they always wanted you to come in but that was the only thing that kept me there so I could spend time you know with my kids well let’s dive right into it then um as best as we can I’m going to try to steer you and make sure we talk about all these things because again the spirit of this is to shed light on it to hopefully improve these situations and hopefully never let these things happen again um so yeah let’s Dive Right into to it you mentioned employee abuses I don’t know where best to start but uh yeah give us an idea of some of the things you felt you were exposed to and others were well as a shift manager and any other like staff member you know I I had to supervise the independent contractors is what we called the working girls and I had a bartender usually housekeeping driver post hostess and um we all got minimum wage and we would make more money if the house booked which you probably know that you know we’ bonus um a lot of the stuff I saw were and you can stop me if I if I Trail off I I was just gonna ask you what you meant by that real quick because I don’t know that I do know so like the house you said you would make more money if the house booked or something like that like for instance on my shift when I was on day shift um it was a 12h hour shift and if the girls booked parties to um totaling $3,000 I would get a $100 bonus 6,000 I’d get 200 it stopped there that would go on my paycheck and then we split tips with the bartender but that that was a rarity at a couple of the houses you know you rarely got that gotcha thanks for explaining that so so I mean what were what were some of the things I guess just off the top of your head that that I guess specifically stood out um I guess for For the Working girls themselves um um well a lot of the working girls you know they would uh fly in take a bus or drive in and they they would walk in the usually they were on their last leg financially that’s why they were there they they walked in with nothing but debt for the house you you had to pay the driver you had to go in you had to pay for Doctor any kind of supplies you need room and board Sheriff card um you’d pay that and you you’d walk in in debt so your first parties that you booked you get nothing and a lot of these girls thought they would walk out with like 20 grand a week I don’t know who was telling them that but they had to jump through hoops and put their themselves on the internet too to get anywhere and they they they didn’t like it they would have to borrow money to get out because they’ get so far in debt that they were taking low parties you know doing a lot for a little just to pay off the debt and and it was like a fishbowl they couldn’t get out very few you know did well you know they they were somewhat educated women and and they made a career out of it and I know a lot of those women that did make a career out of it and did it for years um I’m not a medical specialist but a lot of them can’t have babies now because of the physical you know abuse on their bodies from it the brothel were trailers put together they were very old stuff did not work half the time like running toilets you know electricity not working or toilets overflowing Plumbing was bad you know it was cold we went with a broken front door in the winter for like a month you know and I’ve never seen stuff like the carpets cleaned or any kind of deep cleaning in there they talked about renovating but you only renovate once in a few years you know so it uh to me it just wasn’t sanitary and a lot of the staff that we hired that would stay on were almost uh unemployable in other places they were like drug addicts you know and um or just no experience no no Transportation they they lived nearby and they didn’t really want to work um I worked for Dennis Hoff and he saw the staff as an expense to him you know he didn’t call you by your first name for like the first year or two you work there and he treated the all the working girls and all of his brothel like his own personal herum and a lot of girls would would um party with his friends like I don’t know can I say their names like celebrities yeah yeah a few have been said before so yeah you know that Ron Jeremy had charges on him for rape I do know some of that happened at the ranches and the girls didn’t want to talk about it because they thought that because he was Dennis’s friend he would have they would have to go meet him in his uh room because Dennis would let certain customers stay the night there in the extra rooms and just Ro roam the place and they never wanted to talk talk about it there was another celebrity Bob zuda he had a lot to do you know with Andy Coffman or whatever his name years ago he would come in and party Dennis would pay half of his parties and girls came out crying with bruises because they thought they had to party with him you know he was very cheap then they had the message board members that would get to go there and stay a whole weekend eat the food walk around drinking and maybe party want you know keep all the girls was busy and it it there really wasn’t money in that but he would let like men just do what they wanted and Dennis he was a throat Grabber you know girls came back crying from being with him before he died there was rape charges against him a brand new uh cute little blonde came in and it was on my shift uh he called me up and said to get a driver to take to his home he was having lunch with her and she went and came back back and when and he drove her back she stayed like a couple hours later and her head was down she was walking slow I asked her if she was okay she kind of waved me off and went to her room the next day I guess she went to the hospital and pressed rape charges and this is when he was running for assembly men and stuff the state police got involved my HR called me on my days off and asked me what happened and I told him exactly what I saw because I got that feeling in my gut the minute I saw her walk in I said something bad happened you know and they brushed it off this when the state police did come in to question people they did it when I wasn’t working there to the other lady and then the Chief Financial Officer took over we don’t know where it went after that because he died you know this was just regular girls thought they’d have to go out and sleep with him and his friends you know because of who he was uh the general manager at the time susette I could tell she didn’t like that going on she wanted it to be a little more professional and didn’t like the girls that were sleeping with him because they they would um abuse the staff and get away with it you know it I felt sorry for them and I knew I had to get out of there I was listening to negotiations with these customers through the intercom and some of them were just really horrendous and disgusting to me you know for a little money and I’m surprised there still open to be H I’m surprised they’re still standing there they’re just they’re a wreck they’re trailers you know and yeah you know yeah I sorry were you no I’m done okay no I I loved everything you had to say and one thing I was going to ask you that I thought you know is is tough for these girls like like you said that many of them I heard uh have felt the need to you know sleep with him sleep with his friends and in fact fact he even in many of his press interviews talks openly about the fact that he he only you know has sex with working girls and many of them that are his own you know and so that is something that is pretty clear I mean by his own his own admission and and everything else um but one thing you said that I didn’t even realize that I was going to ask that I felt like has been you know there’s like not so it’s like you’ve got this legal industry going on but there’s not any real regulatory Authority the regulatory Authority is the sheriff that you’re essentially paying off I mean you you are literally paying the sheriff for the card right and it’s kind of a holdover for the 1800s um so that’s your regulatory body I don’t know that you’re necessarily getting uh you know it’s not like there’s like food inspections or or anything going you know the equivalent to the sex industry like a sex inspection or I guess what I’m trying to say is you know some of these girls when they had these things who did they go to right nobody to go to you know that nobody some of them felt like they deserved it I’m sorry I didn’t mean to interrupt they feel like they deserved it they they couldn’t and no one would would hear them because they were in a brothel yeah but did did you just mention though that uh you H like did you have an HR department or something there we had one HR lady she did the hiring and the scheduling um and to be honest the lot of the staff that were there were her personal friends and they had like a little click going on which I wasn’t in of course and there was a lot of theft and and lies and I remember at one point they had a posttop woman I guess that you call it I’m not against trans or anything like that but they had one in the brothel the the girls didn’t feel comfortable sharing a bathroom with her and and all HR told her to do was to keep it quiet that she was postop she was going to let her party with these men and not not disclose any of that to them yeah yeah um so there’s a lot of other things that you said that I’ve been trying to ask um I’ve been interviewing both current and former uh legal sexw workers or working girls however you want to call them um and many of the things that uh they’ve pointed out I just wanted to go through the list to see if you had anything to add uh the food sucks no good food uh some places I guess the Bunny Ranch isn’t but maybe you can correct me if I’m wrong uh some locations in Nevada are what’s called lock down brothel and you can get like fined for for leaving and such some places uh some counties you can’t have a car some counties you can’t live in the same county that you’re like registered to work in um I’m just kind of going down a bullet like a laundry list of things that I think are very wrong with the sex industry did I bring up any other thoughts or do you have anything to add to the the stuff I just brought up well we we have a we had a driver on duty and they would take the girls wherever they wanted to go really like to go to Walmart and get a few personal items and stuff you know they could leave usually their first two weeks they wanted them to be locked down they you know they had a big sister the first week to train them and um they could come and go they could live here and they could do their they could either tour from out of state or somewhere else or they could live local have a house and and come and work at like a regular job but the shifts were 12 hours there wasn’t much time off and they they wanted you to post on the message board create a hundred posts a week on The Message Board which was it just clogged up the message board nothing got across you know right um there were and they were locked but the girls could leave any time in fact they used to uh when weed became legal they would buy weed and go hide it behind there and say they’re going for a hike and go smoke it yeah um it wasn’t a complete lockdown like like some places might be yeah can you tell me a I was gonna say can you tell me a little bit about but if you were about to say something else I’m just am very curious to hear about the lockdown brothel it sounds like they have to work 2 4 hour shifts in the lockdown brothels do you know anything about this I believe The Love Ranch South which I never worked at it was closer to Vegas I think you were on 24hour shifts and it was lockdown I’d never been there I know the ones up north you had a 12-hour shift you had to be there um unless you were so great you could work by appointment only um right it was just uh it was out there where it’s located you have you have to go quite a ways to get in into town to get anything yeah so that’s another thing I’m not sure if I’m answering no that I mean you only know what you know you know so um another thing you’ve brought up is that there are girls that come in and some girls are the exception right they can make money they can book on their own time and they are likely the ones you see on TV talking about how much they love the job the people you never hear about are the people I maybe I’m wrong here correct me if I’m wrong but I feel like the people you never hear about are the people that you were alluding to that are not there by choice um right we had four brothel and one was the Bunny Ranch all the top Bookers went to the Bunny Ranch to work because they got most of the publicity and the and the good PR the houses we worked at were kind of like the lower houses they put the troublemakers the ones that don’t book so well in it and you know the ones that are um How can I I say physically challenged they put them there so we wouldn’t make any money you know they just that they just hit them out there just to fill the beds what do you mean physically challenged well do you mean like heavy I’m I’m sorry if this is like a bad assumption but you’re can you yeah I don’t want to assume I don’t want to put down the women there there’s something for everybody but there was a time when every woman I had there was over 50 then there was another time where I’ve had some obese girls that that flew in and I knew then and there that they they weren’t going to be able to pay their way out it’s not that I’m insulting them or anything but they just went into a black hole you know and I guess the advertising to be a working girl you know they try to make it sound like you just it’s it’s a revolving door and it’s not and um these girls would come in with nothing absolutely nothing because the email that went out from HR said uh your Sheriff card and stuff will be deducted out of your first party so they made it sound like oh it’s going to be paid like that you know and and some girls just don’t they don’t have the negotiation skills they don’t have the experience you know and they get stuck there and then they end up uh working for minimal you know doing a lot for a little and still getting no money and then they can’t get out of there because they flew in you know or took a bus and they’re a lot of them try to call family and friends and beg for money to get out you know and yeah to me it was like a black hole for them yeah I guess maybe to put it in a different uh maybe different words um there’s a a person that I didn’t have the opportunity to speak to but I will be including in my final uh kind of episode on legal sex work and their perspective was having worked in Nevada brothel and they even worked in brothel overseas and everything else their perspective was the way that Nevada like has legalized sex is not legalized prostitution it’s legalized pimping in the desert yeah I thought that was interesting how she said that in other words nothing is made for the to like there’s very little let me say to protect the Working Girl most of it is to protect the customers and the pimp him themselves right um we had they had a contract I think it was a one year or twoyear contract that they were independent contractors they had to work a schedule they couldn’t work at any of the other brothels that weren’t owned by Dennis in Nevada for a good amount of time or he could sue them and they had to go by that they had to go on a schedule um then Dennis would come in and if he liked a girl he had a fetish for either African-American women or blondes you know the blondes he would take out and parade and and they’d be his girlfriend for the week and the African-American sometimes Hispanic girls he would have them meet him at his quarters at his Bungalow gotcha it just to me it just wasn’t good treatment you know for girls that wanted to come and make money yeah so I’ve I’ve done a little bit of research into the Bunny Ranch and the way that some of these the brothel work is it true that at the Bunny Ranch like you basically have to work your I mean of course like I know this feels like it goes without saying but let me like set the stage here um you have to work your way up and by that I mean obviously you have to work your way up like you say when you arrive you’re in debt but another thing I’ve been told is like you start in like the shittiest room and then but like the best woman gets the best room is that at all true yes it is wow and to me they were just bigger rooms that they worked into they weren’t all that oh like I said it’s an old trailer old trailer is a small room you could barely breathe in and then the bigger rooms but they were all part trailers and you know falling apart to me it was just a facade you know just a bigger room you work up into this room and then they had like the top book the top Bookers of the month and theyd get like a designer bag you know and that was about it they get acknowledged nothing else interesting you know one thing I’ll add um the Dennis and susette would make everyone call them Mommy and Daddy and then try to pass around Mother’s and Father’s Day cards on on Mother’s and Father’s Day for everyone to sign nice that’s kind of weird that’s mental abuse to me you know yeah definitely they’re your pimp you’re you’re sleeping with men and giving them half you know and then they call you Mommy and Daddy to me that that’s just a total mind flug yeah absolutely um I’ve got a few other questions but I just want to throw you like an easy one that I think just be interesting to hear about I’ve heard that like the drama between the girls is ruthless like you’d think that they’d all be on the same team but in fact I heard like especially when Dennis was around that it was kind of a competition for his attention and they would even try to sabotage each other like by putting bleach and their shampoo or have you heard anything like that yes it was always drama all the time as a shift manager a day didn’t go by when I’d get on just get on shift trying to at my coffee that two girls would be arguing over oh she flipped her hair and lineup it was always minor stuff and they would pick on the the top Bookers saying that they’re dirty hustling and really you know they just got picked and you know make more money just to try to run them out we had a lot of girls like that and if you got rid of one two more would show up you know and a lot of the staff would stir the pot too it wasn’t just the girls you know I didn’t get along with with the other shift managers they were in a click and they tried to sabotage me really how so do you mind well when I was new and I was on graveyard shift the two day cashiers that I worked with one was the head cashier she was my boss she uh stole some of my bonuses you know I would um book an outdate on my shift and I could get a $175 bonus I called her because I told her well the guy will be back he’s going to run his credit card in the morning is that okay will it go on my books she would say oh yeah it’s going on your books don’t worry about it let him go you know and he’ll do it I come in the next day thinking I’m G to have some extra money and I hear do you know what happened he can’t pay till Thursday and I’m like is it is it still mine she’s like no it’ll go to on whoever’s books Thursday you know and it was hers and then another one a lady booked uh there was supposed to be a bonus of $88,000 for an outdate and it started an hour after my shift started she put the money on her books and when I walked in I said That’s supposed to be mine she’s like well you know I haven’t bonused in a while I said no you were supposed to make it into a deposit because she was telling me you to call a limo and make all these reservations for him you know and she got the money and she was good friends with the one HR lady and lied to her so she got the money I did all the work and this this happened all the time you know they there was no one to have your back or help you yeah and really quick just for our listeners uh frankly you know some of these people have never heard about any of this stuff before I know what you mean by the books and stuff but can you kind of just explain a little bit of what you meant before we move on to our next topic well when someone gives you money you know to pay to either if you want a party later like come in the next day or later that night uh they give you money and want to pay for it then you got to put the money in a deposit box and it goes on the books of the person who’s booking that party it goes on it would have been gone on my books because the party started on my shift you know it’s how much money you make on your shift and she put the money on her books which was dayshift it did not happen on her shift it was supposed to be a deposit but she put it on her books and I got nothing you know it I was going to ask is there a lot of abuse with that I feel like you’re just writing [ __ ] down it’s ripe for abuse yeah it there is a lot of abuse and then there’s a lot of manipulation you know they’ll let some girls get away with whatever they want if they only book on their shift you know like yeah you can go to the casino for a couple hours or or you can go out for a few drinks while you’re supposed to be working here you know and do this and that but you gotta if you set this party on my shift you know yeah yeah I had girls cancelling thousand parties on my shift when I worked Braves and would reschedule it on the other lady because she was messaging them through her phone you know tell them I’ll do this and this and this for you you know stuff that you’re not supposed to do interesting well um want to just pause for a second before I move on to my next question is there anything else that has come up that I guess you want to take this conversation in a direction towards because again I’ve kind of got my own ideas I’ve got notes and stuff but just kind of revisiting these thoughts I wanted to ask you is this brought up anything else you feel compelled to like that we haven’t mentioned so far and if not we can you know we’ll have plenty of time uh well I’ll tell you one thing that I wanted to get out there because someone very close to me was bartending at the bunny rant um they turned the septic guys away and all the septics got full and the one at the Bunny Ranch one night overflowed in the forier it it overflowed it went down the front steps sewage I’m talking about into the um the Parlor the foyer and and all over the place and instead of calling someone with tasmat suits or you know taking any interest for the general manager the owners to come and look at had it all they did was told the manager on shift that the hostess had to clean that up there was no towels no tools all that they had to use the old the same mops they used for the kitchen to clean it and they had to use booking towels and I know that person got off that night she had raw sewage all the way up her leg they were sick they were having asthma attacks and sinus infections you know all kind all kinds of hazarded stuff it got everywhere and that’s how they took care of people and that’s how they took took care of their brothels they just put a Band-Aid on stuff and that and I tried to I forgot who I messaged and emailed someone in in the health services or some and some paper and and they didn’t even cover it or look because it’s true uh I know Dennis did pay off cops I don’t know how much when and where but the cops hardly ever came there that is insane um I got to ask like if I could like that’s a thought that’s always come up for me is this Band-Aid the the idea that you just said that they just Band-Aid things and I mean Dennis Hoff put even in his own book he acknowledged or or some he put somebody else’s perspective in the book that was saying you know when I arrived at the Bunny Ranch I expected this gleaming you know brothel that I saw on Tera Banks but what I arrived to was a row of trailers at the end of a Dusty path you know they falling apart yeah sure the the interest is bright and everything but the back is like smells like an old strip club reeks of sex and cigarettes um so I’d like to take a moment to show you what I was referring to and I’d like to be able to give you the opportunity to look this up yourself so if you go to YouTube you should be able to find a video that was released eight years ago by MSNBC and the TI of the video is should prostitution be legal I’m about to share an excerpt from this clip let’s take a look at it here is the clip okay tell me about Cammy Parker Camy Parker in the book tell us who she is and let’s talk about her Cammy Parker’s a girl that came to work for him she worked illegally in Vancouver she worked in New York City she came to the Bunny Ranch and I started started dating her I dated her for 2 years along with a lot of other girls I was dating and I lived with her for less than a year okay this is a girl that I didn’t like what she was doing MH and I found out she was doing drugs with another girl Barbie girl and one morning I woke up and I left I walked out I never left I never said a word to her again ever okay when you have consistently promoted the Bunny Ranch as somewhere that’s beautiful and that’s clean and that’s like a home and Cammy Parker stated in the book when we pulled up in front my heart stopped it wasn’t glamorous at all it was dilapitated and gross a bunch of trailers sitting at the end of a Dusty Dirt Road in the middle of nowhere this wasn’t the shiny pimp on Tyra Banks had promised at all when we got inside it was worse the entrance was bright but once you came through the foyer it was small dark and dingy like a strip club out of the 8S it smelled like sex and ashtrays so your dream that you’re selling on the message boards of the money Ranch is not what they’re getting not what she says now why did she stay there 3 years then okay 3 years all right she stayed there three years she’s lying because because you can see from the data and you can see you listen I’ve met a lot of prostitutes I’ve represented them I’ve cross-examined them what maybe like one5 the number of you that you know and you know how psychologically fragile these women are when you meet them and how much further damaged they become have you you know what PTSD is yeah okay so listen to this 68% of 854 people in strip club massage and Street prostitution in nine countries met the criteria for PTSD do you agree with that I I I the only reference I have is the Bunny Ranch and I know it’s not like that there you have how many if it was that I have S it up if it was that bad why did she stay 3 years because she was making a lot of money she loved the not iety she loved going on the TV shows she loved me putting her in in in men’s magazines she loved the Glamour and the money that went with it that’s why now she hated it when I dumped her okay and I ended the relationship and wouldn’t speak to her and she’s going to say these things now she’s also called Judith Regan in the last few days and said I think I was probably too hard on Dennis in the book but I have the nerve I have the nerve to put my criticizers on in I do I give you a lot of credit for that but I think you also have to so that was Dennis’s response to people characterizing the Bunny Ranch as just a bunch of thrown together trailers so I guess my question is how were they not making enough money to do to to [ __ ] make it like a like You’ think you would want it to not like you would think you would not want that opinion of your brothel like if I ran a brothel I’d be like I want people to be like man it was the nicest place ever there were no stains you know like you just yeah yeah in if you walked in you’d look at the bar an area and it’s pretty dark with big screen TVs around you know with videos of the girls I don’t think most people really noticed how how dirty it really was you know especially guys you know they come in have a few drinks and some of the girls over there I don’t think they had much better outside of there they wouldn’t be there but it it was nasty um especially that sewage leag that caused the person closest to me to leave and you know they and our maintenance guys were on drugs one of them they had to eventually fire because he admitted he was coked out they were doing and and they told me they were doing Edibles psychedelics uh cocaine drinking one of them asked me to put some rum in his Coke and you know they were and going around trying to fix things but stuff would stay broke for weeks they didn’t know what they were doing I think now they got one maintenance guy there you know for the all of it yeah that yeah that doesn’t sound like an efficient way to do maintenance high on psychedelics that sounds like a good way to have a good time but uh they were having a real good time yeah I’m sure I’m sure yeah well um that was a very interesting story I I just wanted to pause again I mean any anything else um because I can like I say I have uh a few more questions that I want to ask you that I think may bring up other thoughts um but again I just kind of wanted to pause for a moment in case this is bringing up anything for you well I mean other than the way I was treated towards the end and how they started we had a new general another general manager take over he was a guy who ran the Cabaret but uh Madame susette the general manager called her his son he would have a name you know we had like a you know those lighted boards that send messages ACR I’m I’m drawing a blank oh my gosh you know like announcing it would announce like the top Bookers and all the birthday yeah but it would have like a like a banner or something like that yeah it was a banner I’m sorry I I’m totally having a brain fart it’s okay and they and it would say stuff like Prince Christopher rocks you know he he he was this little pixie boy you know and when he would have his birthday in February Madam susette and Dennis would let him have a party at the Cabaret the strip bar when um it’s open and they would tell the girls and everybody okay go over there and take lots of dollars because this kid Christopher he would go dance around the pole and stuff and and these guys would pay they would pay cover to go in there and watch girls not watch some you know gay guy swing around the pole he got anything he wanted and she tried to promote him to general manager after tennis died and he was horrible you know he he just looked like a deer in the headlight and I quit because of him because he tried to write me up and he got in my face tell me you understand he was cussing at me and stuff over some past I I left some past stubs on the desk because I was in the office with them and my boss the head cashier had a phone call I stepped out so she could take the phone call so she takes a picture of these past ups and um sends them up to cistomer writes me up saying I’m leaving money out you know because I let my supervisor in there and just walked out it was so Twisted it’s like you guys you know he was cussing at me and uh it was awful it made me cry I was I’m a 57 year old woman you know I don’t I don’t take that abuse yeah well I want to take a moment to just say I’m sorry for what you’ve been through you know um both what you’ve seen U but what you just yeah like I say what you’ve been exposed to it’s it’s awful and I I appreciate you taking the time to tell us about this no problem these are just examples of what people had to go through you know and they couldn’t hire anyone no one wanted to work there so theyd fire someone and hire them back and you know it people got away with anything and and it wasn’t the first time they cussed at you and treated you like crap and yeah you know if I think of another story I I’ll let you know I’m you know it’s been a while yeah no worries and I mean we can always do this again too so um yeah have you heard about like kind of I hear about it all the time these outside pimps taking advantage of and actually I heard a term I finally heard a street term for it they say and maybe I’m getting this wrong but I’m pretty sure my memory is correct on this their bottom [ __ ] their top earner um they the girl that they can trust the most they will give the option you know because they’re pimping they’ll give the option for her to work in a brothel and she likes that cuz she can play the game you know she’s a good working girl I guess I’ll just stop filling in what I’ve heard can I ask you the question have you heard of outside pimps in other words not the legal pimps not the licensed pimps but kind of this outside game absolutely a lot of them and a lot of girls referred to them in the brothel as their husbands and if they weren’t making the money that um they thought they would make or their their husband what thought they would make um they would start stealing because they would Panic some of these husbands were ruthless and yes there was a lot of pimps this brings me to my next question um but really quick um well actually let me ask my next question and then we’ll kind of wrap at this uh put a bow on this um Nevada seems to be a conservative area Dennis Hoff was running as a republican in fact he called himself the Trump of parump um I’m trying to understand how legal sex fits in and I’m look I’m sorry but just from my perspective I live in a very conservative area actually and I don’t agree with a lot of the people that I live with in fact I disagree on a lot of things but I understand them and what I do understand about them is that they’re not okay with legal weed and they’re not they’re not generally okay with the idea of legal sex and so can you explain to me is there something in the water in Nevada that’s different with conservatives like what how how is this continuing to go on is it is it just the money it brings in for starters I I can approach this from different angles Dennis would uh donate generous amounts of money to stuff like the library the boys and girls club and uh local local um things here like a dog park and stuff just to make himself look good so of course the elected officials you know would kiss his butt and look the other way um when they were doing a voting thing to close the brothel the one thing that we knew would happen to our area a lot of these working girls have set roots in this area you know all around uh Dayton Carson City Mound house a lot of them have moved here and live here if you close these brothel these women are going to be having customers coming into our neighborhoods they fly in sometimes to see these ladies they’re going to be flying coming into our neighborhoods and I could have one leaving next door and having all these men coming in and out you know I don’t necessarily anymore think that they need to be open they’re not contributing anything to society but you got to think about how long they’ve been here and and how many people live here that are working girls do I make any sense I guess so you’re saying that you would rather you don’t want them open but you would rather them not be doing that business in your own neighborhood you think that’s maybe the perspective of most most people in Nevada exactly and one thing I can I can bring is um we have some of the younger girls or some of the girls that look really young and they cater to pedophiles it’s it’s well known they cater to pedophiles and there’s quite a few I don’t know about you but I don’t want them in my neighborhood I would like to see it all wiped out and I believe that if these women had better career or or better options or you know if they had more money and Better Lives they wouldn’t be there in the first place they’re playing on you know they’re kicking them while they’re down is the way I look at it yeah now just gonna I’m going to do this a few times by the way um I think this is good though cuz like I say I understand conservatives I’ve been doing enough research to where I understand Dennis Hoff’s arguments and the legal sex sex industry’s arguments so here I am the legal sex industry so you have a problem with uh sex workers and just again I’m being Devil’s Advocate I hope you know that I’m not um you have a problem with sex workers who cater to pedophiles would you rather pedophiles [ __ ] kids I’m not saying it’s wrong I’m just saying if if they closed the brothel and these ladies were living in our neighborhoods and these pedophiles trolling through the neighborhoods would you feel safe if you have kids okay I see what you’re saying now I see what you’re saying that’s just an example that’s a small portion of the clientele you know some of them are good they’re high rollers they just you know want to come in and experience it um it sounds very contradictive because I’m up in the air about should we close them all well yeah I’m mad at them I’d say yeah but I got to think about the people there and I’ve still got some friends that work there and it is off the highway you can’t see them from the highway you just see the signs yeah you know I don’t like the way everybody’s treated there yeah and I feel like the issue is the way that it’s structured the fact that it has to be so far out in the desert so far away from everything like again one of the perspectives that I looked up uh online and I’d be happy to share with you because this person is very honest about the fact that they did not enjoy their experience in Nevada brothels and they say they’ve kind of been fodder frankly for this for this entire series it’s how I knew to ask some of the questions I asked and everything else like that and one of the things she said though is in Australia which is still not perfect by any means um she said one of the good things is though that the you know brothel are in town you can go home sleep eight hours you know and and all these different things it’s a little bit more in society and and as a result kind of naturally monitored you know what I’m saying it’s not out of sight out of mind right which I feel like is Nevada M so and I’m not saying again I’m not saying that’s The Simple Solution I’m not saying move them into Vegas and everything’s going to get better right because like I’m not saying that but it does seem strange that they are all out in the desert and frankly I want to tell you another inspiration that that gave me this that started me with this there’s a there’s a documentary called chicken ranch have you ever heard of it yes I I heard of the chicken ranch I haven’t seen the documentary please do it’s on YouTube uh it’s it’s by a documentarian named Nick bromfeld um he’s probably maybe not happy that it’s on YouTube but while it is damn it check it out because I don’t know how else you can stream it so please check it out but the inspiration there’s this woman named Mandy and she’s a sex worker and there’s a scene towards the end of the documentary she’s crying she’s explaining that uh her you know there was a disagreement with her and her boss and she’s trying to leave she’s Cal and from what I’ve been able to find after the documentary was released and he he cut the documentary off after this scene he comes in he says there’s going to be no [ __ ] film if you ever release this I’m going to sue the [ __ ] [ __ ] out of you and props to Nick he [ __ ] released it so [ __ ] Walter plankington uh the former owner of the chicken ranch but my thing is not to get lost in a in a you know just a specific example it’s I really feel like the desert like [Music] you know yeah there’s some zoning there’s some zoning laws with the brothel there’s a couple laws first to be open they have to be on their original structure so if the whole thing burnt down to dust it’s gone they can’t rebuild it I don’t know if you know that but your listeners might not know it it has to be in those trailers you know the way they are they can remodel them and and do whatever but has to be the original structure I’m not a contract or anything but I do know that law and there has to be a lower population I I’m not sure what the numbers are they make it I actually do know this part I don’t know exactly what it is but basically they adjust it by census so that it’s always it’s always the number that is Las Vegas so that it will never be in Las Vegas right right it has to be like in a rural kind of area where there’s not a lot of people um yeah that I do know yeah so it’s just it’s just crazy like I say I really feel like it being out in the desert is the reason that it’s ripe for abuse so I kind of that kind of leads me to my next question I mean frankly you know many of the people I’ve talked to have wanted to remain as anonymous anonymous as possible you included is there a reason to be scared well I I live pretty close to it and I I do generally I don’t mean to make it about you but do people have not I don’t fear for my life or anything I just don’t want any cyber attacks you know like on social media and I run into some of these people once in a while while I’m out shopping and they and I work in a casino I see them I just don’t want any face-to-face conflict with them for them to do anything to me I you know I’ve already had my Facebook hacked well that was my fault I left it open in the office and I just exed out of it I didn’t sign out and the manager there that didn’t like me uh just let everybody go to town on it a you know but I I just don’t want any conflict or anything I understand I understand I guess the reason I ask is because um I had a guest on who uh was open about who they were and uh they were a Hell’s Kitchen chef and they helped to cook for Dennis on his LA on his last two birthdays and as you know on his last birthday he didn’t see the morning um and there is one headline that I’ve been able to find that Zack hes his for former assistant alleged that Dasha a sex worker killed uh Dennis and uh I’ve shared that online and uh you may have seen it actually I’ve been told that that wasn’t true and that Zach um may have had a history of starting drama is there any do you know about this story do you think there’s any merits and the reason I just to give you the floor and the reason I’m coming from where I’m coming from I’ve heard that Dennis Hoff died a year later Zach died and I also heard that Dennis Hoff’s pilot died and I’m sorry but when you hear [ __ ] like that on the Internet it’s easy to get the poster board and start going crazy on conspiracy theories right well I I don’t believe I don’t think that’s true Dennis had a lot of health issues you know he had diabetes and and he would eat like three bowls of ice cream with chocolate syrup and drink all these sugary drinks during the day um he didn’t take very good care of himself he was going to the Mayo Clinic for some of it he could barely walk and he was drinking like three or four red bulls a day on top of it all and Viagra of course he was popping it like candy because he was a 70s something year old man and he smoked a lot of weed so I don’t I don’t think she killed him I think she was if it’s the one I’m thinking of for Hell’s Kitchen I I think she dated him for a while towards the end I don’t I don’t know if that’s I don’t know if that’s true I think she was just uh maybe though I don’t know maybe she didn’t maybe not mention it but and I want to be clear that she didn’t say that uh she told me about Zach and Zach saying that and I just Googled Zach’s name and if you Google it it’s like what one of the first things yeah Zach is dead I didn’t know that uh he I’ll tell you about Zach from what I know he came in on as Dennis’s personal assistant he was fired from a job before for stealing he was uh basically using Dennis as a sugar daddy he was like taking you know he was homosexual he was taking picking up guys taking them to Dennis’s big properties and stuff like in Vegas and stuff and and just going into the bro and if he couldn’t do that he’d take him in Theo at night and take and steal the alcohol drink for free and go into the VIP room with him you know he totally took advantage of Dennis he really wasn’t there for for Dennis um he had a they had a gay pride parade one weekend in Reno and he had one of the maintenance guys who got fired for cocaine driving the limo and he came and got one of my my top booking girl who would who’ worked from the ground up took her there gave them they all they did was have drugs in the car car and and booze and the girl got fired because she was so high you know they had to put her in a rehab this is the type of person Zach was and susette fired him after Dennis died the utopy said Dennis died of a heart attack which isn’t a surprise yeah you know I don’t think anyone poisoned him I think it was just his time gotcha gotcha yeah um that’s that’s crazy so another I guess another like a last few topics that that have come up a few times it sounds like drugs are just there and and the reason I say that that way is because they Dennis was always very clear whenever you watch any press like no drugs I don’t like drugs I’m not around drugs I barely smoke I drink occasionally um yeah the answer to that is yes there was all kinds of drugs nothing we could really do we could search rooms but some of these girls would hide it outside and like I said there were Trails behind them going to the river they they’d stash it if they wanted it and they they probably sell them in there even even a couple of the bartenders were getting high at work and everything and drinking all the booze and stuff it was just an ongoing party with them yeah sounds like it there was nothing professional as a manager when I tried to report it or do something about it nothing would get done I would just make that person mad at me and you know not show up for work like I said nobody had your back there they they would look the other way but if they didn’t like someone they would use it against them to get rid of them but that was it and I had some girls in there that were seriously mental mentally ill they wanted me to give one girl Xanax and then give another girl an abuse because she was such an an alcoholic and I didn’t want to deal with medicines and drugs the an abuse was switched out for something else anyway because she was still drinking I mean you had girls that would drink themselves into a stuer they would pee and poo themselves and still walk around and you know if they booked and made money Dennis would baby them and take care of them and then tell us staff if she touches another drink you’re fired you know or keep her in her room you know how hard that is that’s crazy that’s pretty insane yep so did you ever feel like and I I want to be mindful of your time because I know I don’t know what time it is wherever you are but uh you good on time for just a little bit longer cool and like I say I’d love to chat with you again if anything else comes up or if I come up with any other questions because I’ve frankly just been so intrigued and I feel like okay so I want to be clear on one hand I feel like nobody’s talking about it but on the other hand I want to give kudos to all the journalists that are talking about it um the person that facilitated this conversation has sent me a lot of good work um some from CNN way back in the day um I’m the newsy there’s a few other sources that have done the work so I don’t want to say nobody’s talking about it but I don’t feel like enough people are talking about it and so yeah felt like I was backed in a corner and nobody understood because if you haven’t been in a brothel you know they don’t understand from both from both perspectives from the staff to The Working Girl what what they put you through and I’ll tell you what general manager would just stir stuff stir the pot when there was drama yeah and if I complained her about something it was like oh poor baby w w you know huh if you made good money for Dennis and Su that like you know if you had a customer and had like $60,000 outdates they wanted to monitor you and everything you did and they wanted to push you harder and if you got top Booker every year he wouldn’t leave you alone one lady um was an alcoholic she commuted in from Texas and she was doing so good that um he made her move here she was renting one of his properties and she was a full-blown alcoholic and it only got worse I think she went into kidney failure and we had to pull her from outdates because she was too drunk and he kept her as long as he could milk her until she was had there was nothing left and he fired her that’s insane they didn’t care about the well-being of anybody you know Dennis would come by and um get the girls drunk and then even miners Min alcohol yeah you’re not talking about miners like that just got out of the coal shaft no no um if they could they could work there when they’re 18 but you know the drinking age is 21 okay so that’s what you mean by miners young girls you would get them drunk and stuff and and I’m supposed we’re supposed to control them and you know it’s and it was just insane and the girls would abuse us too and I’m I’m talking about mental ill illness some lady was so bipolar and because she had one good customer she conned into a little money about every three or four months we had to put up with her and she she would just pretty much run the house and throw fits and scream and say what she wanted to you and nothing would happen to her yeah I I found a way to get rid of her I will not disclose it here but I I I couldn’t take anymore is there um is there anything else going on there like I’m just you know I actually haven’t found a lot of like conspiracies about what could be going on at the brothel but one thing at brothel but one thing I could find that somebody just said on like a YouTube channel they were like the brothel were just designed uh to uh compromise people that’s why all the rooms are bugged they Ed that material to compromise people like is is that recorded is there any truth to that like what’s I don’t think there was any bugs but there was an intercom in the office I could hear everything if I wanted to and I had cameras in the office up and down the halls in the in the Boyer but not the rooms yeah in the cat house show they had like the cameras in the rooms but that was just part of the show Maybe not unless it was their cameras they didn’t have cameras in the rooms not at the ones I worked at unless they wanted their cameras you know um yeah no And as far as Dennis bugging it if he did he certainly didn’t let anyone know but yeah girls would get paranoid and think that because they would be in the hall and they would say something about Dennis and Dennis would text or call them like five minutes later so so just to be clear you’re saying it was just like an intercom where you could just hear everything in every room could you just like punch into which room you wanted to hear or what yeah that’s all I did because you know each of the parties had a certain time amount usually 30 minutes to an hour and after I’d have a beeper and when that went off I’d have to buzz into the room and tell them it’s time to rep party but like how can you when you just want to listen in do you just like like how does that work you just pushed the button it was on the wall and i’ I’d have to listen to negotiations because a lot of girls would steal uhhuh they would negotiate like say $500 and they bring me up 200 to book the party and stuff like that so we had to listen to the negotiations to make sure that Dennis and susette got their Fair cut yeah right that the The Working Girl wasn’t taking more than half right right they even had to sign in their tips wow interesting interesting and so so all of it like whenever they book the room they don’t get handed the cash or anything you write it down on the books and then they get it at like the end of the week or something like that or what yeah they get paid daily except for the weekends when they book a party I have a little booking card with their name on it and their room number and they could pay cash or they could pay with credit card and the credit card never said the brothel the credit cards would say stuff like Mount House Motel Joe’s Bar and Grill for the married guys you know and nice they they’ pay that and then Monday they got in paid for each day if if they got it but a lot of them just got cards with no paid due because they owed so much to the house you know they were in debt so bad and they kept half of it anyway a $200 party you had to pay like I think it was $35 room and board each day and then give them half you did a $200 party you only got like what $70 out of it that is if you didn’t charge anything else so so are you saying that like if if I did a if I booked a party but it just didn’t cover my room and board and stuff and let’s say it actually didn’t cover my room and board you’d give me a card that said no pay do and like maybe what I owe or something like that or what right yeah you get your balance on how far debt you are that’s so crazy I don’t feel like in any other I mean I I could be wrong but like when you’re an independent contractor it’s not like you ever get handed something like I mean yeah that’s weird I mean like theoretically sorry my analogy was going to be stupid I was going to say it’s not like you ever get handed something that says you owe money but I mean if you do the work and you’re a contractor yeah I mean sometimes it does come out of you know it comes out of your pocket originally but then whoever’s paying you that the costs cover it type of thing so I’m just talking out loud I apologize and a lot of girls that went there they think oh I’m not going to charge less than $500 for 30 minutes or I’m going to charge this and that and that and and they get they go into negotiation and they don’t have negotiation skills and these guys are hellbent on paying 200 and they turn down so many parties waiting for the big party that they get so far in debt they have to take the little parties now you know just just so they could get their head above water it’s really sad I mean it’s like a a hamster wheel yeah and I’ll tell you something else go ahead I had to buy my son’s health insurance when which was they made me pay $300 out of my check every uh two weeks so my son me and my son recovered and the health insurance sucked nobody wanted to work with them and my paychecks for four 12 hour shifts ran from um about $300 to $500 every two weeks so you weren’t even making enough to cover the health insurance is what you’re saying that’s what I got after it all oh after it all got you know it’s it was it was horrible I had to borrow money from my daughter to get groceries and but they had they had health insurance I actually did see something on YouTube they have health insurance well the working girls I don’t think so but for the staff they had to give us health and dental but it was the deductible was too high you couldn’t afford to go to the doctor I’m a veteran I was using the ba anyway but some of them can’t that’s interesting that you say that cuz the the coverage on that back in the day was like oh Obamacare gives prostitutes Health Care insurance and denisof was talking about it and stuff but now you’re saying that it was only the employees and that the the working girls never really were entitled to that because they’re independent contractors no I’m sure they might have been able to purchase some but most of them yeah but that’s interesting he even had working girls talking and saying like yeah I mean we need we’re we’re working in the sex industry we need like that is a total spin now that I know what I know now so I’d like to be able to play the news footage that I was just referring to I recall this being on the news and it it has stuck with me ever since I saw it and I was able to find the report online one thing I want to just say I just listened to it and it seemed like the sound is only coming coming out of the left speaker so I don’t know if that’s how it’s going to work when I play this for you all but here is the news clip uh which was produced about 10 years ago on December 17th 2013 by news for San Antonio it’s on YouTube if you look got brothel workers praise Obamacare here is the video having this profession we aren’t exactly offered group health insurance um it’s also hard because I do have a pre-existing condition so I’m really for ObamaCare I’m excited Taylor Lee’s pre-existing condition didn’t help but that wasn’t the only reason she was denied coverage prior to Obamacare before the new law she and the other girls who work at the moonlight bunny ranch said getting health insurance was impossible because they worked in a legal brothel and I switch Prof professions and I wrote it down they denied it because of the profession I’m in they um equate us to Illegal working girls who have very high STDs and um Aid rates which we have none of the above we’re legal licensed prostitutes the girls say it didn’t matter to insurance carriers that Nevada’s brothal are highly regulated I see the doctor every week it’s state mandatory and it’s we tested week we l and monthly for blood so the new law that allows everyone to obtain a health care plan is very welcome news here we’re independent contractors so we have to get our own insurance so this is truly a blessing we really hope that the Kinks are worked out and that affordable health care for all happens but Raves for the Affordable Care Act stops with the girls brothel owner Dennis Hoff is not a fan he thinks coverage for the girls is good but he’s less than thrilled with the new law that lumps his seven small separate businesses together requiring him to pay for coverage for all so that was the clip that I’m referring to and watching it back with you all I realized that the sound quality was even worse than I uh thought it was so folks I’m sorry if the sound levels were jumping around I’ll try to do some work to make that a little bit consistent the other thing that I will say after having watched that with you all is that it it isn’t exactly like I remembered and how I just kind of said it in that conversation it sounds like they can get health care I don’t know though this is really unclear to me so what I’m going to say on this one is do your own research it’s unclear to me whether or not Obamacare actually gives access uh to Health Care uh for these sex workers but that’s the clip that I was referring to I’m glad I was able to show it for you all enjoy the rest of the episode and you know they get they doctor every week and it’s a $880 minimum up to 100 and something depending on if you need blood work or not that would they would go into debt paying that if they didn’t they couldn’t pay it up front so it was just adding up yeah so I’m getting I’m getting to my last question but you just brought up another thing you know they always say well it’s the the legal sex industry and the great thing about the legal sex industry and I’m not disputing that this is a better thing about the legal sex industry but they say the great thing about the legal sexx industry is that the girls are tested and condoms are mandatory and I’ve been asking the the current and former working girls would you feel more comfortable if the guy was also required to test and it’s interesting um most like I don’t mean to you know it just seemed like the the standard answer I got was that’s um unrealistic and I said but that’s not the question would it make you feel more comfortable if the guys were tested and so I don’t know do you have a perspective on that like that it seems like a big hole in the because as we know or at least I was told condoms don’t protect you against everything well the problem with that is when the customers walk in they want it now and if they have to test the doctor’s only there once a week or our doctor was and it takes 24 hours to get results you know you might lose customers and if they test on their own maybe that would be great if they wanted to but I don’t think lot of them would go there it would kill the business you think so a married and stuff you know true and I can tell you I can tell you something else about a lot of the working girls the ones that came in on regular tours and then brand new girls towards the end there I left in January 2020 but towards the end there over half the girls that were either returning to the brothels or new couldn’t work the first week because they all had like an STV I was going to ask that what happens when you do when you pop positive as they say when you get drug tested they’ll send you back to the doctor to get treated and you have to wait seven days to doctor again and get cleared and sometimes they’ll let the girls stay at the brothel but they can’t work and they just become a royal pain in the ass because they’re they’re bored just sitting there doing nothing and they end up leaving you know after they’re clear um that’s about what they do and I had one lady that was HIV positive of course she couldn’t come back you know but they were they were all basically that happened in the brothel I don’t think she got it in the brothel she was new but she had said that she was tested before born didn’t believe it so she flew out there and and tried to lie and say they were all false positives and stuff so she was just going to give it to people you know she just wanted to make money she didn’t care got to consider that too A lot of the girls they will go bear back for the extra money really yeah and they they deny it but when they live there and they get an STD and and rumors go out there a guy will party with a girl and and she doesn’t he doesn’t have to use anything and he thinks that’s great so when he negotiates with another girl in the same place it’d be like well so and so didn’t make me wear one you know it gets out wow yeah I thought it was mandatory it is mandatory but I can’t be back there and watch you know the guy has a him yeah yeah and it’d be a little weird if somebody just like watching the whole time like yep yep hey oh hold on a second it’s slipping off yeah I know here wait it’s not on right here here’s a smaller one right another thing is we didn’t have security and that bothered a lot of girls and yeah they they tried to explain that security would only cause more problems but the girls didn’t feel comfortable we didn’t really have anyone to call when we had to throw someone out I I’m 5 foot2 and I’m an old lady lady you what about the panic button the Panic buttons are in the rooms um you hit the panic button it goes to the office and we got to go to the room I thought it went to the cops that’s what they always Sayes the office and I’ll be honest with you at the house I worked at there was a couple rooms that didn’t have Panic buttons nice or intercoms or intercoms so you couldn’t even hear them nope I’d have to go knock on the door why wow so but then those rooms were totally unmonitored so maybe some dirty stuff could have been going on in there and I say that I sorry I don’t mean to care you get what I mean by that yeah exactly and one was there was two VIP rooms in the one I worked at they didn’t have it and they were all the way at the other end of the brle there’s no way I could have got there in time if something was going on and then another there was a couple rooms where it was broke and they never fixed it of course we didn’t have good maintenance guys so they they got away with whatever and uh and the house I worked at I’ll throw this in real quick before I forget they had a gas leak okay and the gas L was going on for a while we could smell it on the on one side of the house we put maintenance orders in every day saying we smell gas and all the maintenance would do is laugh at us and go in and open a window and leave and then they found the gas Leake and they had to shut us down for a couple days because it was it was horri they had to dig up the front yard and fix it and you know that that’s the condition the building that’s going back to the building conditions and I’m sorry that just popped up in my head I forgot a lot of stuff yeah no I I love all these details um because again frankly if we didn’t talk about this like I’m far away and people aren’t talking about this and some of these details would just die and and and frankly the cycle would continue yeah you know what I mean if we don’t tell these stories we can’t learn from each other and and possibly improve the situation which Le leads me to my my final question for now um and I realized this is a big one and we kind of already touched on it but what’s the answer okay you know what’s what is what is the answer how do we do this because because criminalization doesn’t work right right legalization hasn’t been great so what is the answer I don’t know um I’m just thinking about how long they’ve been there but I think the buildings if you ask me I’m you know I’m not a code enforcement but I can only imagine that they’re pretty close to being condemned you know we’ve had leaks in the ceilings you know when it rains and and then Dennis is going to tell me to fix the leak in the middle of the night and I’m like I don’t I’ll put a bucket there you know like I’m going to climb on the roof and the girls would tell me that too well go put this some tarp on it no I’m not going on the roof what’s the matter with you you know I mean just wall to–all stupidity if you ask me I’m an educated woman I’m also a veteran and I I was a dancer for nine years when I was a single mom I’ve been I’ve touched Bas in the industry and I know how sley club Owners and stuff can be I’ve had to deal with it you know it’s but I I would just say get rid of them to be honest at this point they keep arguing that oh we pay tax a lot of taxes but I think we could go without it a lot of businesses would probably move out in that area if the broel weren’t there and the only homes that are there is is a bunch of trailers you know really poor people that really have no say some of them have to work there because they don’t have cars I don’t particularly want them around anymore because i’ I’ve seen it from the inside you know I was just throwing it out there that the girls would bring it in our neighborhoods because some of them don’t want to stop they’ve had the same customers for years you know so it’s like a catch 22 how you know what would be the repercussions if we closed them all and fired all the the staff members and then sent the working girls out they were closed once for the for the shutdown but I do believe I heard through the gra Vine that uh susette was doing um escorting out of the bunny and but a lot of girls I’m pretty sure did Own Thing by escorting you mean like she just was basically continuing to do what yeah since it was Co um the ones that were there this is just I didn’t see this but I heard about it they got their escorting license same with the Mustang Ranch and some of the girls would just go on outdates what is an escorting license you can you can you can get an escorting license I believe they I’m not sure what they got but that’s what I heard through the grapevine and other people have told me you know they laid everyone else off and they had the shift the shift managers that remained there just sitting there in empty houses because they were afraid to lose them you know till they laid a few off and then I I always thought escorts was like a gray area sex worker like basically they were like oh yeah we’re gonna party tonight and that’s what you’re paying for and then coincidentally we may have sex and whatever you want by the way well most escort escort services you know not the brothel but they’ll say the sex is free you pay for their time that’s how they word it you know okay well exactly yeah the girls were allowed to do outdates you know you paid a certain amount and had to get the guys information and stuff and the girls had to check in so maybe they just called them outdates you know since uh they had to have the six foot rule and stuff and the whole Co that they just did it outside of there interesting um so yeah again though is so that so your answer is close them down but should sex work be criminalized I I think so to protect them but you know I’m also a free spirit too I’m like a girl wants to do what she wants with her body but I the people controlling it are sketchy and you feel like I don’t mean to put your words in your mouth but I feel like what you’re saying is you feel like there’s no way to take the abuse and manipulation out of the sex work you like you like the idea of the free-spirited woman that chooses to do it but you feel like that’s not the case well let’s let’s face it they’re going to do it and I I really don’t have an easy answer for for you for closing them down me personally from seeing what I saw I think they should just I always wanted to wish I could buy the culde saac and make a big old flea market out of it you know for families and have food and stuff you know for for people but I’m I can’t say no girls aren’t going to stop doing it and I’m not going to hate them or for doing it but I think this industry here in Nevada it’s very sketchy and there’s a lot that goes on that they keep quiet about and I don’t I’m sorry that’s not a direct answer but no it’s I mean I I think about the repercussions that they do close them for a few of them you know that’s what I’m thinking about I’d like to see them close but then I’m like well where’s everybody going to go you know I got one at at least working girl that lives near me you know she’s not going to stop and so it’s it’s the what I’m saying is it’s it’s has roots here it’s grown it’s been around for so long and some of these girls have been here I’ve got girls my age and they’re 50 still working you know what are they gonna do yeah so the question I’ve been asking the sex workers I guess just to put this question a different way and then before we close I’m going to be Devil’s Advocate one more time just in case you know but anyways uh the way I’ve been asking the girls the working girls both both current and former is like because generally they do they they argue that sex shouldn’t be criminalized and they just don’t think that the perspectives I’ve heard is that they don’t like that they have to do it in that brothel like they would love like like they’re fine with the idea of brothel but it just costs so much so like the sex workers themselves can never run them so there’s always this huge power differential between the owner and the sex worker um so so what they’ve proposed is like yeah brothel could be there or whatever but they like they want to be able to work independently they want to do kind of like a hair cutting license like you know if you if you get a hair cutting license you can go and you can work at Super Cuts or whatever you know big hair salon or you can open your own hair salon which could be just a individual one but it could grow into this Enterprise that’s that’s but what I’ve asked them is so so you’ve acknowledged that there are issues with Nevada’s legal sex industry before we do a copy and paste into other states like my own Illinois what would you change right and and they would kind of go down the list of lockdown brothel all those things and so I just want to guess ask you do you think that this shouldn’t start in any other state or like do you think that because like New York for example just decriminalized sex I believe they just did so it’s maybe even too early to tell how that’s going um but yeah what do you what do you think sorry I know I’ve been talking a lot but I I I think what they’re trying to tell you is they wanted to come and do it on their own terms you know and to have to give half of it to them just to use a trailer doesn’t work for most that does that make sense and they they want to be independent contractors they wanted to work in a legal safe place you know where customers came but it it was just too too strict on them like 12 hour shifts you work the these shifts no others or you can work more and you got to do this dress like that I think a lot of them didn’t like that because a lot of them escorted before and they had more freedom and a couple of them came to the Brussels because they were tired of getting arrested on the streets you know I I think that’s what they want they just want more freedom understood yeah and I yeah and paying you got a $60,000 outdate I never thought it was fair to share 30 with the house I always thought that after maybe the first 10,000 they get to keep it you know I never thought that was fair and so a lot of girls tried to take their clients outside of there that’s pretty nuts yeah no you go ahead sorry oh no you go ahead I’ve already forgot what I’m gonna say sorry okay well um this may not jog your memory because it you know this is going to be me Playing devil’s advocate again um but again I’m aware of what I think if somebody in that industry might say if they for example heard uh you know this conversation or whatever um and I don’t remember how you said you left but let me just just spitball I’m just going to make something up you’re just upset because you’re fired you um you just burn you just uh you’re just upset because you can’t work here anymore and that we weren’t your friends that’s sorry I know that might sound like a weak argument but that something they would say they will you know I I know the Madam susette they will use that in fact she’s probably had shift manager meetings and use me as an example for everything she could think of um I wasn’t fired I walked out okay I told him I have fibromyalgia too that was part of the reason I wasn’t feeling well and they they weren’t supporting me they were like um like well you Urgent Care is open till nine and I’m like yeah I’m doing blood word I wasn’t diagnosed yet but I was having a lot of health problems and yeah I am I am mad there I’ve had I also have some really good friends there you know that that are staff and they can say that all they want but there’s more people that leave those brothel that are disgruntled and and traumatized sometimes than people that leave on a good note fact I haven’t met anyone that left on a good note let’s see what again again not I’m not trying to like argue with right with you right now you’ve already acknowledged that this is an argument they use but again it seems like whatever they whenever you you or anybody says something like that they’ll just say oh they’ll come up with some story about how you’re basically just pissed because you couldn’t continue to work there and you know what I mean just the Classic like oh it’s not you or it’s not me it’s you type of thing well I might be pissed I am not going to lie they can say what they want but yeah or I guess I guess to put it in a so that it doesn’t relate to you I guess to like show you how I’m framing my devil’s advocate argument um that quote I said earlier that was in Dennis Hoff’s book uh when the girl was talking about how she went there expecting it to be the shiny brothel and it wasn’t right and his response to that was well then why did she stay there for 3 years she’s just mad because um I broke up with her and any girl that breaks you know gets broken up with is going to make up [ __ ] and blah blah blah so you see how I like tried to frame that in a different way for you exactly yeah yeah so I just wanted to explain myself because I didn’t want you to think like I was just being an [ __ ] so yeah you know that’s any place I wanted you to try try to defend that uh because frankly I feel like that if if anything were to come out of that it would be that you know well I mean they they can say what they want in fact usually when people uh switch jobs there’s a reason they’re not happy there um I I did a job for four years after Dennis died I stayed on a year longer yeah he died in 2018 yeah I stayed two years longer thinking that there would be good changes and susette tried to make good changes but on top of that they they came cracking down on us and making all these rules and stuff that we couldn’t really enforce and making people the scapegoat yeah they can I I’m human I’ve made mistakes I never got fired but they can say what they want the ones that you know mo everyone that’s quit there you could interview them and they’re angry was there ever keep going sorry it’s like post traumatic stress disorder when you’re there and it’s going on there’s so much going on you know you don’t realize how bad it is until after you leave but I I used to get nauseous sometimes going to work wow that’s what I was about to ask you is was there ever a time maybe that you like I don’t know Justified or you were just so overwhelmed that you just couldn’t even pump the brakes on the whole thing you know yeah um one of the reasons I stayed like I said earlier is I liked the four days on and four days off I really didn’t want to work fulltime but that gave me enough time to homeschool my son and do what I got to do um that that was like the number one reason I I stuck it out I thought oh I can deal with this you know but there’s so much in most work environments there’s so much slander and illlegal stuff and sketchy stuff going on and nastiness it’s you know not maintenance not taking the trash to the dump enough you know to where it’s overflowing and you got used Sanitary products all over the backyard behind the brothel on the ground and and then you got coyotes and animals eating them you know it’s yeah and I know I’m jumping all over the place but they they can say what they want yes I am upset and I was upset for a while I I wasn’t happy about the way that I was being treated and I was getting sick and tired of the drama and I wasn’t making enough money to put up with it you know there was no reason for me to stay I had another job a week later nice I didn’t even I walked out on a whim too I didn’t have plans I because I I know people you know I’m a smart woman I can get it I had a job a week later and I make more money you know of course they’re going to try to cover themselves well she was terrible she did this she did that you know and it’s like well then why did you keep me there for over four years there you go you know you can say you can say what you want they lied about U me walking out too you know they did yeah um when I when they came to write me up over those pay stubs that were sitting there because I was in the office with it I was waiting for the girls to come by so I could give it to them um the general manager brought a paste of from another Ranch threw it down in front of me cussing saying that that uh my boss Kim managed to sneak this out you know said that it was mine that she stole it how and they wanted to show me how easy they could be stolen and I’m like okay well give me that and I’ll put it in the safe I don’t want it to get stolen again and he’s like well actually it comes from the sagebrush rants you know we just wanted to show you how easy it is I said well if she didn’t take it then it wasn’t e it was just I told him I can’t TR I thought I could trust my supervisor in the office to have a private phone call while I was standing outside the office with the pay there that she wouldn’t take it and she told me nope you can’t trust me and B and I thought at the time well I don’t want to work for someone I don’t trust yeah you know they left I got on the phone called my husband called my daughter and another friend told them what happened and that I was leaving it was liberating too I drank a bottle of wine celebrated nice and then called my friend at another company and interviewed and got on there nice I’m glad that yeah just go ahead have you interviewed any good people that are happy with it and love it yeah well that’s what they say yeah yeah I interviewed one person that told me uh I think they worked at Sagebrush which I I think that’s one of Dennis Hoff sold yeah yeah I work next to it um she told me at the beginning of the interview that she couldn’t say anything bad about the brothel she’s told I she said I just want to let you know I can’t say anything bad I said okay folks if you’d like to see the conversation that I was just referring to where a sex worker told me she couldn’t tell me anything bad check out episode number four in our series on legal sex work once again if you go to the co memo.com seex which you can see in the uh URL bar here at the top of my screen you’ll be brought to this page and towards the bottom of the page you’ll see all of the episodes that have been released to date the episode that I was just referring to was episode 4 featuring Kiki lover let’s take a look at the moment that I was just referring to cuz uh she’s actually going to return in a future episode and I ask her about that moment and she confirms what I recalled let’s check out this moment and then we’ll get back to the episode with Toren so I’m about to play the moment that I was just referring to one of the things you had mentioned before our last interview and you just alluded to was that like well let me just say say what you said before our last interview you’re were like hey my employer says I can’t say anything bad you know and so uh I wanted to ask you like you mentioned before we got on toxic and stuff like that what did you mean by that you know what do you mean my employer maybe I’m remembering incorrectly you said somebody said not to say anything bad or or something like that so who like Sage I think so yeah cuz that’s where you were that’s where you were at yeah but maybe I’m remembering incorrectly I smoke a lot of weed so no I didn’t say that about um my current partnership no no no not your current partnership your former one oh yeah my former one yeah correct sorry I didn’t mean to you know back then in that place we were very much not able to speak up we was not we Wen not at all it was just very you had no opinion type of place you had no opinion you couldn’t speak you know yeah like for an instance when that shooting happened [ __ ] it let’s talk about it yeah that shouldn’t happen so you can tell that uh that episode is going to be great that will be EP uh that will be Kiki lovers return uh again though I just wanted to share that moment to show you which episode I was referring to and to tease Kiki’s return to the coal memo once again if you want to find all of the episodes in this series that have been released to date go to the memo.com seex no that’s good yeah I’m glad some people like it but it’s not for everybody and they are rough on on people when it’s not for them um there there was a lot of abuse towards the staff I want to be clear I meant to say she was told she couldn’t say anything bad oh well there you go yeah so so yes I’ve talking to sorry I didn’t mean to cut you off you were you were the point that you were going to make actually still stands I feel like um but but I just wanted to be clear because I could see how you may have misunderstood me when I said oh like it’d be like if I said I don’t have anything bad I have to say like she was told she was told she could not say anything bad yeah well I can comment on the food yeah please there was there was plenty of food in the brel I’ll try to add something good there was plenty of food in the brel we had a deli bar that we would inter we would um inventory every day and they delivered fresh cold cuts uh potato salad vegetable V salad stuff bread you know anything you wanted sandwiches um fruit they did have that now our house we changed out regular because I would eat my lunch there so I made sure that some of them didn’t go in there the food would rot and then they delivered dinner every night a van would come by now the food wasn’t always what some people ate but they would have a steak night a turkey night there wasn’t much variety you know on the time of week but they did have food there and there was um a water cooler and coffee all the coffee and tea you wanted and you could buy drinks at the bar but some of the girls wanted to just have something to gripe without really because there was there was something for vegans and everybody sure you know I noticed when Dennis died it started getting worse they started heating up frozen chicken nuggets and calling it dinner but you know there there was some good food there you know yeah well that’s that’s a good thing are there any other good things that you would like I’m just you know well my schedule I liked the four days you like SCH and and not having to waste so much gas commuting to work I like that and I got along I I made some good friends there you know of course we were all there together for 12 hours we had some good stories I’m sure you know it was just you know a select few on the staff that was sketchy and stealing and a lot of the people they didn’t do their job they you know they’d be too high to do it honestly and I’m a I’m a pothead but I don’t do it at work you know yeah and you know that those were the two good things it wasn’t gourmet festar food but you know it it was dinner and it fed the hole you know you weren’t it was part of your room and bored oh gotcha gotcha well this is this is crazy I mean how do you look back on those how do you look back on that like oh my God how did I stay so long yeah of course I have a good job now I work in a casino by myself it’s a small one and I I make good tips and I I don’t have I work alone ex up for customers and I like it I only work four days a week but most of the complaints I had at the broel were just not having my back you know as a shift manager moving the good girls that booked up to the Bunny Ranch so we couldn’t make any bonus money um when the girl would get in big trouble or staff member would get in trouble instead of firing him they put him at either the Kit Kat or The Love Ranch and I was at the and then we had to deal with them and there was a lot of mental illnesses and drug addicts and girls with pimp there the I was kind of shocked to hear about like the fact he said there was a lot of elderly people there I got a there’s a lady there that she’s a a vintage porn star she’s about 65 years old but she looks good you know her there’s a few that that still got it going so you’re saying yeah so you’re saying though that more than a few of them their bodily functions wouldn’t even work anymore after they got out of the business yeah I’ve met I’ve talked to at least three or four girls that were top Bookers that can’t have babies and a doctor told one that she would have to either give up the industry or have a hysterctomy what’s going on there what’s going on it it’s rough on your body I had a girl and I and let me know if I have give you too much information she was new she went in on an outdate with someone else and this guy was so rough on her she didn’t want to say no because by the way you share as much information as you want to as you’re comfortable with he he was in doubted apparently and he he wanted her to know it and he would put her pin her legs up and just pound on her to where she had to go to hospital you know because I think because these girls are working girls and they’re professionals and they do it all the time that they can do whatever they want to them and this kind of stuff happens or like um anal you know roll girl over and try to slide it in the wrong place and you know all kinds of stuff had a guy that I called the party and he didn’t want to stop so she managed to hit the panic button I had to go I was so mad he was running his mouth I picked up Mrs unprofessional I picked up his clothes told him he was leaving ran down the hall and threw him over the fence I said if you want your clothes you’re going out there to get him because he was refusing to leave and everything and you know so he had to go naked and get dressed in the parking lot that’s funny I mean I’m not security I can’t beat the guy up what else am I going to do yeah that’s insane though that you don’t have security and again one of the biggest things that I just apparently misunderstood is that the panic button does not call the police I because I was that’s the one of the main things most working girls say is that the reason I’m okay with giving half and paying room and board is because you’re giving me this legal platform this safe place with a button that I would have on the streets this is the you know the thing they say and it sounds like there’s just a lot of holes in all of that upon further reflection I wanted to revisit this moment I said something to the effect I that I feel there’s a lot of holes in the argument of safety and I don’t know I just almost disagree with what I said there because while it wasn’t it was not the way that I thought it was in other words anytime I ever saw mention of a of a panic button in the brothel by the sex workers they were always claiming that if they pressed the button that it called the police immediately I mean look while that’s not true it’s also not untrue I would say if somebody hit the panic button I’ve talked to enough perspectives in fact this next episode uh will include a perspective of somebody that has been on the other end of the panic button and they will come down there with weapons or call the police so and or call the police I would say so I just wanted to be clear that it’s not that the panic button doesn’t get uh these workers help it’s just not as I understood it to be um I UND I thought it was like you hit the button and like when you hit the button it was like uh you know the local sheriff department like Hello uh what’s your emergency we know that we’re getting a call from a sex worker but of course that’d be kind of crazy honestly if you think about what that would take to set up it’s like a number that automatically dials the Sheriff’s Office anyways I just wanted to be clear that while it wasn’t what I thought it was it’s not it’s not I don’t know I just didn’t want to mischaracterize what it was even though it wasn’t what I thought it was so just wanted to pop in with that enjoy the rest of the episode yeah and and another thing they cannot lock their doors from the inside they can lock their closet and some of the rooms have a safe but the they can’t lock well that’s a safety issue too you don’t want the guy to lock the door and beat them up but they can’t lock their door so when they sleep and stuff and you know you got guys in there we got we got to keep a close eye but we can’t see everything you know they’re supposed to not go beyond the Parlor without an escort but some guys have been drunk enough they they sure have tried well again I want to thank you for what you’ve shared today because you had a very unique job and you saw and were exposed to some things that uh were frankly crazy and like I say in the spirit of U trying to prevent that cycle from continuing I am very happy that you were that we were able to get connected so that we could share your story um and share some of these things I’ve never done interviews I hope I’m helpful and I’m just pulling stuff out my head that you know come to mind so I hope I was helpful oh you were more more than you know um it’s been really hard it’s been really hard to have an honest conversation like this because I’m trying to not look I don’t know if these girl some of the girls I spoke to did choose or did not choose or what their stories were and I don’t want to come in and say you didn’t choose this and the statistics say and all this stuff you know cuz I don’t know who they are and they don’t know who I am and I don’t want to attack any anybody and but I am trying to learn and find out if these things that I’ve found online are true and then when I come across perspective it’s like you know your uh perspective um again I’m just like I literally started this podcast smoking weed and talking about like just [ __ ] that is going on in Illinois and then I knew somebody that went to into the legal sex industry and so I have just done little Googling and I found out all of these crazy [ __ ] details and I am by no means an investigative journalist and it’s just again crazy again I’m not trying to diss on journalists that nobody’s talking about this because plenty of people are in fact John Oliver recently did a piece and other people have done pieces on this subject but um you know it just feels like not not enough people are are talking about the things that we talked about today you know they talk about all the other things but I have never heard like I have heard these details but like I I say to hear him from multiple perspectives is pretty [ __ ] crazy you know yeah it’s um I’m I’m kind of hopefully this doesn’t slam my credibility I I read like Telegram and stuff and and conspiracy stuff and stuff and I can also tell you that for those who believe in ghosts those brothel are very haunted I’ve seen it and you can edit that out if you think it’ll just ruin the whole conversation but they are no no I don’t I’m not gonna Ed it you know well you gota think a lot of bad stuff happened in there and throughout the years those are old buildings and that’s an old area there yeah just because if you have the time I’m just curious what what are some of the things you’ve well the the biggest thing that I had was um one day three light bulbs went down at the end of a hall I was on graveyard shf and me and the hostess decided to walk I had surgery so I couldn’t climb up on the chair to change it so I walked down with her and she climbed up and changed it there was like a really dark presence and we both felt it we’re like what up it’s true I mean three light bulbs went out the same time at the end of the hall we had that problem a lot I come back up my hostess says she felt like something slapped her in the face her face turned red and started swelling up I’m looking at the camera down the hall and all of a sudden these thousands of what look like orbs in the camera just going from all over the place and I’m like hey guys come here and look at this and they were standing there staring the driver the bartender me the hostess and so the bartender and Driver are standing there and me and the hostess tried to walk down the hall again and she goes all the way down the hall but for some reason I couldn’t I stopped I don’t know why I just couldn’t move so like I tried you have you ever just froze and she came running back up and we both ran in the office and and the driver says those orbs just surrounded you and spun around you so much that we couldn’t even see you for a minute and she had a chamol and a hoodie on a little tiny girl pulled it up had three big fresh scratch marks on her back huh like scrapes like big scrapes down her back she ran and pulled it off and there was no tears in her clothes or nothing you know and it’s stuff and you’d see stuff in the cameras and one time in the kitchen on graveyard the the clean steam table pans that were sitting on the bottom flew out by themselves onto the floor and I was so scared the what flew out we had a steam table and when we clean them we put the steam pans on the bottom shelf so there’s these like metal plant pans sitting on a shelf you know big rectangle pans they just flew out by themselves on the floor and I was there alone I saw it on the camera and I was so scared I had to go to the bathroom and and not only that the bathrooms had sensor lights and they were going off and on by themselves in the Parlor I literally went outside to pee I was so scared yeah this is pretty crazy I I guess the only thing I’ll say just again just because I’m also just frankly I’m not skeptical of your story but I’m just always skeptical of ghost things I’m not saying that I haven’t experienced things that have been crazy with groups of people but I just want to try to ask you you did say there’s a lot of electrical issues in bunny so I just wonder if it was like you know a combination of electrical issues and whoever installed that security system maybe they didn’t [ __ ] run the wire correctly so it’s like maybe Distortion or some [ __ ] I don’t know I’m just trying to like that’s a possib I don’t know if electricity had anything to do with the steam tables oh Fair flying out and there was nobody around I I got out walked around I’m like oh my gosh but either way I mean that I called Northern Nevada Ghost Hunters and they went through one night and found some stuff that’s pretty [ __ ] crazy yeah yeah and again I want to be clear I’m not skeptical of you but I think it’s always it’s always healthy to approach things with skepticism and you see how I used some of your details to try to explain some things so yeah I wouldn’t have believed it if someone told me trust me yeah yeah yeah so um that’s that’s pretty insane I’ve heard I have also heard other stories about that though frankly it’s actually funny it’s a plotline in cat house so I ended up buying cat house because it was on eBay pretty cheap and I just wanted to see what it was because I had always when I started doing this research I kept hearing about cat house cat house you know Dennis Hoff cat house and so I bought it and yeah one of the episodes they’re talking about some ghost named Charlie or something thing and they’re like stop saying there’s a go oh actually maybe that’s off the chicken ranch I don’t know they’re like stop saying there’s a ghost named Charlie it’s scaring the customers you know well I have a copy of a picture if I can find it I will send it to you on Twitter through Messenger sure um Dennis said if anyone saw this if they anyone showed this picture they’d be fired um it’s got something in the back and I I’ll just if I find it I’ll just send it to you and you you decide what to think about it okay it’s a there he’s sitting there with two girls and behind there’s this horrible distorted face and nobody was standing there in playing sight someone took a picture whoa okay you got to find this picture for me this sounds crazy it’s on my computer because my son has cleaned out my computer but I will look for it and try to get it to you awesome yeah so Toren ultimately sent me this photo and and uh I’m going to display it now but I’ll just show you it’s actually available online right now so if you go on Instagram the handle is Bunny Ranch babes and I’m about to share the screen right now before I show the picture itself if you look at this picture right here which I have my mouse over it’s actually a photo of Dennis and Kiki lover who as I mentioned earlier is featured on episode number four and she’s also returning for what I’m calling a tell all interview if you want to check that out once again it’s the co memo.com seex here in the bottom right hand corner is the photo she was referring to and this is the figure or the ghost she was claiming as present um you know so that’s the photo and uh feel free to zoom in on that if you’d like but uh that’s the figure that they’re referring to they say you can kind of see the body outline here what looks like an arm and a face and they claimed that nobody was there I do also believe that somebody else told me in the photo that like maybe somebody was walking there but definitely no face was there either way um just kind of an interesting photograph so just wanted to share that for you I mean there were good times there I I never laughed so hard in my life with some of the girl stories like a girl had a customer and they were both really drunk and this guy’s an alcoholic and she had a Valentine’s Day butt plug with a heart on it or something and it got stuck up his butt and he found it the next day and he he messaged her and she was mad because he wouldn’t bring it back to her you know sort of stories like that I mean it was pretty funny you know to hear him talk but um I I wouldn’t you know I would love to go back and hear those stories again but for the worst part the way they were treated I just didn’t like it the whole industry and and it’s the same with strip bars too you know I was a stripper owner some owners trying to pimp you out or you know ask for favors or take all your money and and just talk I I had an owner call me a [ __ ] snake you know no respect for the girls we’re just a you know Commodities I don’t even think that that industry the girls are human to them yeah and Dennis told one of the girls told me that um how much he made it was quite profitable I know he was worth about about 52 million when he died and he said he he said that the girls give him half is quite pressible and then he he added to it that they’re stupid because they’re drug addicts and stuff is this like a public statement he made or something you heard he made it to a couple girls that he was talking to I think he was having dinner with them and they told and I believe it because they were they couldn’t believe it either they were you know they were working girls the cat house series made it look like one big happy family M other than the fact that they wanted us to call wanted especially the working girls to call Dennis and susette mommy and daddy you know was to me was disgusting yeah you know I’m gonna go to sleep with all these strange men and you’re G to take half but I’m gonna call you Daddy that’s just another that’s just a legal pimp yeah I mean I’m sure after this conversation I’m going to have a ton of memories come up you know if anything good happens I’ll message you yeah please write it down and write you know just write your general idea down and I’d love to talk to you again yeah well they they dangle a carrot in front of our faces staff oh if you book this much you get this much pay these bonuses that I told you about earlier so a lot of the managers would manipulate the girls to party with people they didn’t want to to get that bonus and if you didn’t have money on the books during your shift if you had a zero day you’d get rode up and get in trouble they wanted girls to call their customers and and have them put tips on the book and I asked I’m like I’m graveyard how many customers do you think would like to have a call at four o’clock in the morning from a hooker asking for money you know they just didn’t think I I don’t I really the more I think about it because you’ve got me thinking I don’t think there’s a way to make it um without abuse in that industry yeah you know hookers they have a stigma about them and guys think they can treat them any way that you can bend them like a pretzel you can knock their uterus out you know and they and they like it because you paid them so it’s I and a lot of the girl most of the including myself most of the girls working girls that I talk to were all sexually AB AB used when they were young it has a mental thing on you you know years later when I’ve read books about because I was a victim you know it really does you have no boundaries after that it’s hard to get back you can’t even have a relationship yeah and what you’re saying maybe is that when you lose those boundaries that that’s when you start to consider well if I can do that and get paid why not yeah exactly you know then they fall into pimps you know glamorizing it or they fall in love with a pimp or a lot of them they were husbands that were pretty much uh sitting at home while the wives made all the money and and I I would consider that a pimp too not not a street pimp like some of them had but you know and the girls would cry because they didn’t make any money and they have bills and their husband’s going to be mad you know yeah it’s just it’s a very emotional and it’s it’s taxing on your body and your mind you know unless you’re paying for a big degree or something I don’t know why you just get stuck into it and and no normal girl from a rich family who’s been to college will rarely go do that let’s say just want to I’ve had a couple just want to try it for a week they were on vacation and did you saying that did happen sometimes sometimes I had a lady came in she didn’t book at all but she did a twoe tour from Seattle she was a nurse didn’t need the money just took a vacation to go there and she would blog about it blog about her experience in the brothel yeah I never read it because you know everybody had blogs I had a lady who got fired from the sagebrush just a few weeks ago looked me up on Facebook trying to do a gofund me cuz she said said she need she got fired wouldn’t say why CU she’s working on a documentary about herself and wanted money to finish it and I’m like lady I don’t know you you know I’ll do a documentary shoot yeah let’s make one that’s funny you know it’s and and my daughter did work there for a couple years as as a I told you she was a close friend of mine but she happened to be my daughter I brought her on she did really well she’s the one that uh got stuck cleaning up that raw sewage link leak oh so she wasn’t a sex worker no she was a bartender gotcha and uh they wanted the hostess to clean up a whole bunch of sewage and and people got sick and the Bunny Ranch last I saw it still smelt like mold and stuff you know you can’t get that out of there it’s in the carpet yeah and they they didn’t close it down either they were still trying to do lineups around it and everything MH well um well hey we’ve we’ve covered a lot of ground today um again I want to invite you back on um anytime you know if you think of anything let me know and we can hop on just like we did now I’m not always as flexible as we just did it’s a Sunday and I happen you know to be flexible but we can work these things out you know and make sure that these stor it it’s been T you know one thing that let me let me be honest here can you I hope that you can appreciate that I’m trying to approach this from a unbiased perspective um uh and you know somebody commented on one of my promotions that I did with a sex worker and they basically um said you know that uh they said imagine being so used to hating women that you think the degradation dehumanization and humiliation of women have anything in common with plant medicine instant unfollow so they unfollowed me it’s like okay yeah because I said because I said there were con I said there were um similarities between legal cannabis in the legal sex industry yeah but they just took that on face value and didn’t like they I you know this is this has started to roll out slowly and they’ve obviously not seen the full context of what I meant by that again I was referencing the bad working conditions obviously there’s not a lot of similarities between the weed industry and the legal sex industry obviously right but you know so anyways I and I don’t know I just wanted to read that comment because you know we’ve had this conversation today and and one of the things I replied to them and I said you know hey uh you know I’d appreciate if you checked out the full context to this um if not though whatever see you later you know um but you know I think that based on what you said if you check out the full context of my interviews you might actually be surprised to hear my angle on this right and um yeah they were basically just like well if you’re inter if you’re interviewing working girls themselves that in in of itself is a problem and I’m like look I’m going to interview whoever is willing to talk to me both working girls people like you that were just staff members and anything else and I want to give them again I had a [ __ ] Chef that cooked for Dennis Hoff I gave her the air time to tell like I’m giving people the opportunity to tell their stories and um you know I don’t really know where to sit on this either like you I well I it sounds like you’re kind of yeah slowly evolving to the point where it’s like there’s not really a way where abuse can’t be involved and I think I can I can see where you’re coming from on that there’s just something about how I feel about cannabis criminalization that I just I feel like we’ve learned that criminalizing it isn’t the issue now like it’s like so I wanted to cut in here because I definitely misspoke I just said something to the effect of criminalizing it isn’t the issue uh what I meant to say criminalizing it is not the solution I believe decriminalization is the end all Beall first and foremost primary it is the first and foremost goal legalization and Licensing and all of that stuff comes second um first you stop throwing people in jail I do not believe the criminal justice system is equipped to deal with these types of uh activities especially when it involves consenting adults so I just wanted to be very clear that I’m supportive completely supportive of decriminalization feel like we’re still working out the Kinks in legalization but again first and foremost decriminalization has to happen and then second we can talk about legalization how to set up a legal regulated structure like the sex act itself it’s like you got to figure out how how to charge people for the human traffic trafficking part of it but I I get that that gets a little tough you know right they almost go hand inand yeah um a lot of it is I believe you know um they tried to say it wasn’t trafficking but I’m sure there was some trafficking going through there one time we had a bunch of girls and I know you’re running short on time we had like about five or six girls that all knew each other that came from up from South America and they were there for a week and I believe they were all trafficked because they they left abruptly all at the same time I think their pimp realized they weren’t making the money that they could and put it back wow they all from the same place you know when we had little things like that people coming through I had a lady that she was my age she was there she said she was trafficked that when she was 19 she got tricked by someone and had to sleep in a crate and was trafficked in places in Mexico and stuff and the only reason she was still alive is because the they owed someone a favor so they they pretty much sold her to a couple of pimps who were a little bit nicer this is insane it definitely happens you know I mean there’s I I I’d sit and talk to the girls and get to know them and they all had in their stories were about the same they always started out with being abused or you know trafficked or raped you know one her father would take her to trck stops when she was 14 yeah you know it’s all those kinds of stories so These Girls Aren’t healthy coming in mentally on L most of them yeah now again again I’m not trying to like extend this or anything but interview I saw Dennis Hoff he took that on exactly and he said you look at any industry he happened to be at an MSNBC building he said I’m sure there’s a percentage of people here that were touched by their father molested that happens in society um so did it happen to maybe some of the people that worked at the Bunny Ranch maybe but that happens in society interesting reply how Cavalier he was good at what he did you gotta give him that yeah well I I I mean as far as like you know talking and stuff I’m about to play the moment of the interview that I was referring to uh in this part of the podcast once again it’s the should prostitution be legal clip from MSNBC uh I encourage you to watch the full clip yourself uh but here is the moment that I was referring to when you say when you say okay why did they stay they were making money because in their minds they can’t leave do you get do you not get that do you not get you not get that sometimes they don’t have parents and brothers and sisters to help them out well this girl had parents and brothers and sisters I knew them the mother was fine with it she went on TV shows with me she’s on Dr Drew she talked about how well she was treated let me ask you this okay so there was a trial maybe you even follow this there was a trial fatherson pimp team and they had all of their girls come and testify this went on in New York okay and there are so many girls who come from families of prostitution I am sure that some of your girls have come from families where the mother’s a prostitute the father’s the pimp are you not aware of that there’s a percentage of every there’s girls in in this building that have been molested by by family members too so what so it that is that yes of course in this room and it’s Society that’s what happens in society and that’s how these girls get damaged okay let me let me ask not every girl has been through this no no you’re right it’s only like 85 to 90% you need to come there you need to come there like Diane Sawyer and other people and look at it and then say this when when New Yorker magazine wrote about me 12 pages I said I want to know if if you want to talk about incestuous relationships or molestation I want to answer in an unedited man manner when it was over with he said we don’t want to talk about it CU we know it’s not any different than the rest of the society we asked the girls hey you so that was the clip that I was referring to enjoy the rest of the episode yeah he used to like to candy coat it a lot and his his motto was um even bad publicity sells [ __ ] is what he would tell reporters he didn’t and towards the end he kind of knew he was dying he was having all these pool parties at his home in Carson City and orgies and stuff and drugs and the girl he would drag all the girls out so no one was working I think he knew he was circling the drain but anyway I won’t keep you much longer if I can come up with anything else I will message it to you can Can I by any chance get a copy of this interview absolutely you can you can just put it in my message do you mind if I post it on a patriot site yeah we’ll talk about that uh once we once we hop off air but absolutely um I just wanted to say before we hop off air just formally thank you again and uh again look forward to talking to you again I’m sure we will chat again so um audience I hope you enjoyed the show I’m sure you found some value in it I hope it was entertaining sure I don’t mean to say like it was [ __ ] up but I I it was intriguing how about that it’s informative captures your intention it’s informative all that stuff so anyways follow me for more recipes no folks I hope you found value in this episode of the Cole memo if you’d like to get a copy of Behind The Pole by Torrin Michelle, just look at the link in the podcast description you can get yourself a copy folks once again I hope you found value in this episode I know that uh we covered a lot of uh what some might consider to be negative topics but I believe that uh these this topic and um other topics like it should be able to withstand scrutiny in other words the legalization of drugs the legalization of sex work I believe should embrace all critiques so that we can work out any kinks and again I I believe that because these systems are rooted in Justice or these ideas maybe are rooted in you know a more just Society uh they should be able to stand up to scrutiny and so once again I hope you found value in this conversation and I hope you check out the rest of the episodes that we have at thecolememo.com/sex
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