The Cole Memo

In this episode, I am joined by Todd Harris. During the episode, we discuss delta-8, hemp-derived cannabinoids, and more.

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this is the Cole memo I am your host Cole Preston every episode is released
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episode of the coal memo today is October 24th 2023 and it looks like I
recorded this podcast with today’s guest on October 18th
2023 enjoy the
episode well I’m gonna pour up here let’s see if I can get the uh crack of my can Todd why don’t you go ahead and
uh introduce folks uh introduce yourself to folks who may have missed your first appearance on the Cole
memo uh so for any of you who missed the first uh appearance I’m Todd Harris I’m
the co-founder and CEO of Clift and I am the co-founder and chief growth officer
at perfectly dosed which produces water soluble liquid emulsions for the minor canono so
Clift you see it it’s actually uh it’s infused with um perfectly dosed Emulsion
so okay cool I always wondered about the tie between that because I’ve heard Glenn say the perfect ly dosed thing and
I I didn’t know if it was like a totally separate thing or what so it is a totally separate thing and we actually
through the process of building PFT and getting it to Market one of the biggest challenges we faced was finding a
reputable supplier for water soluble Emulsion and and we actually had a
supplier we were using and they they weren’t doing any microbial testing or any bacterial testing and it was causing
our drink to perment so we did some research and at the time we couldn’t
find anyone um who did um water soluble liquid for the
minor canono and we we we asked some of our friends in the regulated the license markets if they knew anyone um and they
didn’t and so Glenn and I said well let’s solve this problem for ourselves
uh and throughout that process we said well we can’t be the only ones facing this challenge so let’s make the product
you know the ingred ingredient readily available accessible and and cost affordably so anyone who wants to get
into this the game can get into the game nice and before we get too much further
I mean people can look up PFT P ft um but you know just generally
speaking how would they find you online um they can find us at drink pli on all the socials pft.com
um for you know the traditional web and Ecom Channel uh and then you know
a bar restaurant coffee shop somewhere near
you depending upon where you live very cool very cool yeah that’s what’s so cool about these drinks is that maybe we
can start here they are legal to be sold uh you know in everywhere because
they’re hemp yeah correct yeah we when we launched a company um we looked long and hard at
trying to make the numbers work in the licensed Market we actually had found a
co-manufacturer and a part and partners in Colorado to help get us to Market but
what we realized as we continue to look at the business plan and the business model is in order for us to be anywhere
near profitable we were going to have to sell way way way way more PFF than it
would have taken a long time for us to get the profitability but we quickly realized or not quickly but as we did
some more analysis we saw that hemp provided us with quicker access to
Market um but also a much more scalable traditional business model and that
scalability not only helped us like I said get to Market sooner get into retail and into consumers hands sooner
um but it also helps us live in our mission of creating accessibility to the plant um and how it does that is hemp is
far more resilient it’s easier to grow and process um it’s more abundant and therefore um
you know simple Commodities makes it less expensive and so we can pass that savings on to the end consumer which
ultimately is is the goal here absolutely absolutely well um do you
mind before we get into you know things we’ve talked about in the past and maybe what the future might look like do you
mind just telling uh us a little bit more I have a a loose awareness of the
story but I don’t want to yeah try and recap it myself I want to give you the space for that yeah that’s
a I appreciate that Cole so the the company was born for me and my partner Glenn we we we saw a couple things
happening around us and you know I believe in Serendipity and things happening for a reason and you know a
couple interesting things were going on in the world you know one is what we all can see is this rise of of non-alcoholic
and alternative products to to drink you know this non-al movement this you know
C sober whatever you want to call it this thing has been gaining traction for years right so there was that there was
the the fact that you know in my community where I live I started to do some just like lightweight social um
polling of people and what I realized is that a couple things
one um so many middle-aged women in particular would be picking their kids
up from school but prior to doing that they would take a nibble of a 10 milligram gummy and the the reason we
what we learned is they wanted to unwind they wanted to take the edge off before kids came home from school and so as I
started to dig a Little Deeper I’m like well that’s not a super predictable way because you’re trying to get 2 and a
half milligrams you’re taking a nibble you you know we all know that that gummy that 10 milligram gummy might have all
10 10 milligrams in that one nibble you know 45 minutes to an hour before it takes effect so that’s just not a super
predictable way for people to consume and so what happens is people consume and they have a bad experience and so
Glenn and I were like what happens if we completely changed the experience right and then we looked at just like the
social queuing of what was happening in the world back to that na Movement we knew that cannabis and marijuana hemp
these these worlds were all colliding and the destigmatization and the normalization of the plant was going to
C create room and space for more social ways for consumption right you and I are
you know you’re smoking a joint right now we’re both drinking a PFF but the reality of it is is that traditionally
smoking a joint is not super social unless you’re around people that smoke taking a Gumm is not social at all
because you take it you buy yourself and then all of a sudden you’re high by yourself and so we knew that the social climate was going to change around how
to consume it and so we wanted to put a liquid in the can the last and probably the
most personal reason is the because alcoholism runs really deep in my family
um my mom is an alcoholic I love her to death she’s an amazing mom she’s coming to visit tomorrow shout out mom my dad
died and when he died he died an alcoholic he didn’t die from alcohol but he died an alcoholic my sister struggles
with it I struggle with it my nephews struggle with it it’s it’s in our genes and so part of the mission of this
company is finding ways for people to unwind that don’t require them to have alcohol right people don’t drink because
well most people don’t drink because they love the taste they drink because they want to feel something or they want they don’t want to feel something and so
we’re like well let’s be a a reasonable and a better for you substitute right
and the last bit to that Cole comes from me being a black man in this world you
know the the what Glenn and I have notice and what the world notices is that you know this this this path to
legalization of cannabis and marijuana is leaving people of color in behind whether people want to admit it or not
social Equity doesn’t exist in the licensed markets today and you know seldom do you see a
dispensary pop up in the neighborhoods most impacted by the war on drugs and if
they do pop up they’re not accessible to that Community because the prices are so
high that I can’t afford it and so you know in a lot of communities on the
south side or on the west side it’s easier for you to get a bottle of booze than it is for you to get a square meal
and so we said like let’s be this this this you know Pioneer and make cannabis
so accessible that any convenience store any liquor store any drug store any
grocery store can have access to it and that means anyone in those communities can have access to
it yeah well said well said well thank you yeah for for breaking that down and
you know just for clarity I’m looking at your can here you know are are you guys based out of Chicago or you is your home
base Minnesota or is it both Noble Brands Inc is based in headquartered out of Chicago okay we’ve got we’ve got an
office and a presence in in um Minnesota we have we are actively selling in eight
states currently so you know but but but Chicago is homebased to us we found the
company there and we we always wanted to be there in a big way uh and until more recently um it’s been it’s been a more
difficult Market to penetrate but but you know Glenn and I agree that it is a it is a beach head opportunity for us
and we’re spending a lot of time making sure sure that we that we do do the market right and do the people in the
market right yeah yeah well uh I wanted to just give you an example I’ve already
told Glenn this and I’ve already shared this on myh former show the chinois podcast so I promise I’m not telling you
the story to try to help to sell your brand or anything else it’s more about
the Cannabis drink format it just so happened that the drink that I happened to have was uplift so I went to a Labor
Day holiday with my family and I would
like if you would have told me this Todd or anybody else that I would have been able to convince my [ _ ] grandma and my aunt to take a sip of this drink or a a sample of anything cannabis related I would have said I want whatever you’re smoking on because that’s never going to [ _ ] happen like I don’t you’re high
as [ _ ] that happened though and you know they they just had a sip so it’s not like they felt anything yeah they weren’t getting enough to feel it but but that’s almost good because then they know now it’s like okay I can take a sip and I don’t go out of my [ _ ] mind so
what’s two more sips or what’s three more sips feel like it’s approachable y it’s approachable thank you I could
never never get them to be well just take a little hit because it’s so hard to dose this out yeah absolutely so it’s
interesting that you say this because you know when I when when we started this business and I was telling my mom
about it she’s she’s always the number one cheerleader but she’s still like really was like trying to figure
out like she was never a cannabis user so this was all new to her and but I would let her sample it and I would let her try it and this that and the other
and um fast forward to where she is where we are today you know she’s been
alcohol free for like six or eight weeks now and she drinks two pffs a night and that’s it nice dude nice yeah and I I
mean I had my friend he he smokes a he used to smoke a lot just just as much as I do and now he slowed down a bit so I
gave him a few of these just to like see like what what does it feel like from a person that doesn’t have as high of a
tolerance for me and that’s going to be one of my questions later you know will there ever be a higher dose PFT but um
yeah he says he can feel these and it’s so much more it’s like alcohol in the sense that like you feel it within 101
15 minutes sometimes and you can gauge from there you can almost titrate your dose and that’s why I do think the drink
format is going to be popular like you said also the add fact of frankly Todd even if I hang out with people that are
like cool with pot like there’s always somebody that’s like God that stuff stinks you know and so if I’m drinking
see and I love and I love the smell like when I when I travel to cities that have
medre programs and it’s just in the air I love it but I know a lot of people don’t and so you know I mean what you’re
saying is like how do how do we keep create this inclusive circle like we want to open up the C right right
exactly dude exactly so anyways again I don’t bring that up I mean it just so
happens it was a fft but that was a cool like little experiment I was able to conduct myself that I didn’t think
anybody was going to take a sip off of it and and they did because it wasn’t as intimidating you know yeah and that’s I
mean that’s that’s nailing it right it’s like there there’s a subset of the population you’ve probably heard it you
know we refer to them a lot it’s the canic Curious yeah the people who hadn’t experienced a while ago or maybe have
never experienced it but are interested but don’t don’t know how to approach it
right like to your point having a 10 milligram gummy your first ever time is a is probably going to leave you feeling
shitty right smoking a full joint by yourself could leave you in a a a state
that you regret that right so where do we find a space where with a brand that’s you know well crafted and and and
approachable and and feels like a normalized can of name that sparkling water or name that Seltzer or name that
kombucha or whatever you’re going to drink and and it gives you you know that light heady buzz after one can two cans
you’re going to feel a bigger Buzz three cans depending on your tler be High I mean that’s 12 milligrams of THC right
but it doesn’t all hit you at once you get to gradually you know gradually progress into that high and into that
buzz and it’s you know it’s all about meeting consumers where they are right in their Journey with cannabis so yeah
speaking of that uh since I brought it up and you’re talking about meeting people where they are do you ever have
plans I’ve started to see other drinks come on the market like I saw a 75 milligram one the other day and I was
like that’s what I’m talking about do you have any plans like that yeah we’re not going to do we have zero desire to
do high high potency stuff like that not because we don’t think there’s a place in the market for it it’s just not you
know core to our brand and our company right however I remember you asking
distinctly a few weeks ago if we’re ever going to do a higher dose PFF and the answer is yes PFF plus is 10 milligrams
and an 8 O can coming to the market in the next couple weeks sweet sweet yeah
so it’s it’s it’s already in development so yeah like I mean and we want to we want to create products that are for the
people right like we listen to Consumers and we listen to our our customers and our friends in the community and what
they want we try to deliver on right you know best tasting most functional for them in their life and meeting them as
consumers where they are right like me and Glenn talk about all the time we’ll probably be PFF plus guys right like
that’s who we are we’re PFF regular guys because we love the way they taste but if I can get it done you know in three
cans what I would take like six cans to do why wouldn’t I you know what I mean but but there’s there’s a consumer where
you know when I’m going to a barbecue I’m still going to grab a sixpack of four milligram pffs why because it’s
approachable for everyone at the barbecue and if I’m at the barbecue for a few hours like that’s a way better way
for me to to consume than just taking you know 10 milligram bombs in the face hell yeah yeah I feel you on that
yeah yeah um yeah I realized 75 milligrams might be a little much so but yeah maybe like
a 25 or a 50 I don’t know that’d be interesting in the future you know what I mean of plus plus super plus I mean
super plus yeah I mean we have it’s funny Glenn and I spent a lot of time talking about what should be next um
because we always want to be iterating and we always want to be in you know Innovative and and and a little bit ahead um so we talk about what form
factors um we should we should consider right and and again like I don’t know if
I don’t know if a you know 25 milligram is in the card trust but there’s definitely going to be other form
factors that when people see them come to Market they’re going to say that’s a
great use case and I can see I can see myself using that product for
this yeah yeah well sweet dude that I’m looking forward to uh new stuff from PFT
and I guess just my my last question just about product lines and everything else before we just get to you know some
some of the more fun topics to chop up um the incredibly what is it incredibly dosed is that what it was called
perfectly do perfectly dosed sorry perfectly doed all good um is that what
like are am I able to how is that sold or is it just sold in the pffs am I
misunder understanding um no perfectly do is so so perfectly do.com okay you know we
have a website we you know most of the sales is B2B like we don’t do b2c right
now like there’s no you can go down there and buy a tincture of our of our product it goes to you know product
manufacturers um who want to build really delicious stable
consumables um for for for their own customers right so we don’t you know again it’s like the purpose of this is
to you know price this ingredient so that anyone can engage and um you know
you could test it and you can iterate and things like that so we do you know we’ve got some some breweries around the
country and some distillers around the country um that are currently and actively using uh the product um in
their in their consumables we’ve got a a couple people who make you know really delicious Edibles and things like that
um but yeah it’s it’s meant to be for creat and makers um and we do specific
you know price discounting for bipac women-owned and underrepresented people
who want to get in the game so we we do some discounting for them on their on their orders yeah well hey I think I
just found the product for me um I was looking at your gall yeah what so tell
me about this what what what is like if I buy this what am I getting a gallon of
pure hemp Drive Delta 9 THC like like 90 plus% THC wow cool so see this is what
I’m looking for I want to be able to like make my own drinks mix my own drinks yeah so yeah so that’s like that
is the importance of it right so like this gallon would go to someone who’s doing a high batch um you know like like
batching out drinks like like for instance PFT would buy you know we buy it from we buy it in kilos so that’s uh
you know that’s the reality of it is that it’s for people who are makers and want to make but if you wanted like for instance one of our small tinctures with
a dropper you know one dropper of a tincture from us is roughly 40
milligrams of THC or maybe more maybe 100 Glen Glenn knows the math like Glenn did the math
one time and I was like wait what so yeah we we have these little droppers that we send as samples to to potential
clients and partners and I think one full drop of that’s like between 50 and 100 milligrams see I think I’m going to
buy this product because the reason I was where I was coming from with that other question is like there’s no like
you know like sometimes I go to the store and I buy like a concentrated
liquor and I know we were just talking about alcoholism and such so you know I’m trying to be sensitive to that but
just being honest like you know I’ll mix that into a little bit of coke and I don’t drink the whole bottle in like it
takes me like a few months sometimes to get through a whole bottle so that’s kind of like my I’m like looking for
that equivalent with with this and I think I just found it this would be yeah
this should be it right like you know and we we say this a lot internally and and with our partners both around PFT
consumption as well as like perfectly dosed is like Choose Your Own Adventure you know everyone has their own
relationship with THC and cannabis and like we want to honor that and so for
someone like you who wants a you know a tincture of you know Delta 9 THC because you want to take a drop and put in your
Gatorade bottle on your way to work or whatever like have at it you know I mean
that’s up to you to decide how you want to consume it and what’s right for you that’s so [ _ ] cool dude literally texting a friend about it now because we we’ve been looking for this so you might see a few orders come in from Illinois um but anyways um I’m just curious you know it’s been a while since we’ve met I’m sure you’ve thought about uh the discussion we’ve had and I’m sure the discussion has continued in many ways for you you know like it’s it seems like it’s a non stop battle I’m constantly reading about proposed ordinances here at local levels and stuff people just really want to crack down on hemp and from my perspective embrace it seems like some Drug War era tactics um I’m just curious you know you’ve had some time to reflect I want to you know there was a lot of [ _ ] people talking last time and if anybody’s tuning in that that was on the
panel and wants this type of space just reach out uh Todd can probably vouch for
how easy it was to get on so um but Todd I want to give you the space uh you know
not necessarily just about the debate itself but just the entire Topic in general where do you stand on this and
what should people know about hemp derived canap well first of all I app
yeah first of all I appreciate uh you creating space and and and setting up that that um last you
know podcast with with that group of folks and that debate um I want to say thank you to all those
people I respect their opinion um I respect healthy debate I mean frankly we live in a world right now where healthy
debate and discourse is unheard of um and you you can’t get to consensus without having different opinions and
working towards them so I appreciate and respect everyone that was on that um you know where I stand and where I’ll
continue to stand coming from someone who tried to launch in the licensed
markets and I was I was using an asset Glenn and I were using an asset light model we were going to you know be on
top of someone else’s license producing but for someone who tried that couldn’t find funding couldn’t find retail
support and by the way like my background is I’ve been building Brands and bringing to market for 20 years I
did cultural strategy at New Balance I did cultural strategy at Wendy’s I was director of strategy and Innovation and
I worked on Gatorade like I know how to build Brands and how to run businesses and for someone with mine and Glenn’s
pedigree together who couldn’t find fun who couldn’t find retail support which you know some of the biggest msos in the
country told us they couldn’t find black founded brands that they could back and I said you’re looking at one
right that is a dead end streak and I and I I firmly believe that that that
Federal legalization should happen decriminalization of this plan should happen like people should be let out of jail they should have a right to play in
the industry all that should happen like that’s TBL Stakes but when we talk about opportunity to build real equity which
everyone’s everyone always wants to talk about Equity Equity Equity there’s no more Equitable way than doing it via VIA
hemp again grows outside in the elements
can live off rainwater weed resilient bug resistant all these things right
doesn’t take you know Hydroponics indoor grow water facilities all these things
to keep it healthy and well like it can grow right the plant matter itself can
obviously be used for the Delta 9 THC Delta 8 you know Delta 10 but it also
has other minor cannaboids with massive amounts of benefits CBD we all know about CBG which is a natural stimulant
CBN which helps you sleep right those things don’t come in marijuana so if we want to talk about accessibility and
Equity that’s the way to do it because a lot of people want to get in the game but they don’t want to get in it for the psychoactive effects they want to get in
it for the therapeutic effects right so so like I get I I get exhausted by this
Equity conversation with people that frankly are like windup dolls who get a who who get a you know a a a a Spiel and
a and a a you know
um a a what am I trying to say here like a a a talking points a a bullet list of
what to say and that’s all they say but they they they’ve never really lived in this industry right I just was reading
an article today I it’s not related to Illinois but it is in Minnesota right
where Glenn and I were super active around the most recent legalization and the Bill of that um legalized
recreational but also codified hemp and low potency THC derived from hemp as you
know readily available and accessible the article basically said that the
first license the first bit of of progress was given to an out ofate
corporate can of this guy he’s he’s he’s building a huge manufacturing and processing facility on
Native American land and I said some of us told y’all this is
exactly what’s going to happen because that’s exactly what’s going to happen in every state that has legalized you know
the the the the med wck license Market none of them have an equitable Market even though they’ve all preached that
they’re going to be the most Equitable market right less than 2% of all cannabis um business ownership is owned
by black brown and under represented people so where where we were two weeks
ago on that on that that pod and that call I stand firmly in that same
position that Equity stomping out and and trying to push hemp out because
corporate cannabis interest is that’s what they want they don’t want competition that’s not what’s going to raise the Equitable tie letting more
people in letting more people have a seat at the table is what raises the Equitable side yeah yeah and I have to agree on
that I mean I’ve Big Time proponent of uh open licensing you know um the idea
that uh I mean I just view limitations for the for the most part as
equivalent to the continued criminalization of cannabis because that is the mechanism of enforcement of
course well I mean and if you look around Cole you don’t have to look very far to see who the license holders are
right and you don’t have to look very far to see even if you win a social Equity license what they don’t tell you
is it costs you know millions of dollars to actually uh stand up a business and
operate that license most of these license winners don’t have that type of equity you can’t get traditional banking
or financing in the you know the license markets because it’s still a schedule one and so what does that mean they
can’t ever operate that license so who what happens corporate cannabis and this is every state this is not Illinois
exclusive this is every single state corporate cannabis comes in and offers that black brown underrepresented person
on the South Side offers them a million bucks for the license they way underpay
them for that asset but to to that person in the hood who comes from
nothing that million dollars is a million dollars that’s real money so they sell that license to the corporate
guy and guess what he just picked up an assets worth $10 million for a million dollars and he flips it now he owns the
market that’s what happens in every state state in hemp it’s hard to do that because hemp again it’s readily
accessible it’s federally legal yeah it’s it’s all these things right so so when you get to us hemp operators who
are operating successful businesses and growing businesses and employing people of color employing women um you know
helping provide opportunities and incubating small blackowned Brands which me and Glenn do all over the country you
know what we do we want we applaud we implore for reasonable regulatory
environments testing packaging labeling requirements we want that because that
means that that the the best and the brightest and the creme to La Creme will rise to the top and continue to operate
those who are shady characters and and want to break the rules and want to operate in the darkness they they
naturally get pushed out and we’re okay with that we want people to be safe we want
people to to have access but we don’t want we don’t want access at the behest of safety that’s not who we are but
that’s the picture that’s painted of hemp hemp operators that they don’t they just want you know the wild west and
they don’t want any rules they don’t want any Rags they just want whatever like that’s fundamentally not true yeah
so one thing I wanted to talk about today that I like to to speak about with people that like you’re definitely going
to be very refined in this but this is more for our listeners so behind me right now I’ll briefly allow you to see
my blurred background you’ll be able to see uh um grow tents see these black
shades behind me they’re grow tents and right now you know there’s three plants
in them and uh currently because they’re in uh veg they have less than 3% THC in
them and so they’re hemp and I like to explain it this way for people because when I flip my light
when I change my light schedule which I’m about to do do so the lights are on 18 hours a day I’m going to change it so
that they’re just on 12 hours a day and what that’s going to do is the plant is going to think oh my God it’s it’s fall
I need to start like getting ready to pass on my genetics right in other words
express myself Express thank you and um the plant goes into flower and at a
certain point if you’re doing it right the THC levels will probably exceed
3% and then the hemp uh is known as a different legal
term so hemp is a legal term folks the plan is called cannabis Cannabis sativa
L Cannabis sativa L thank you and um yeah so hemp is a legal term and at a
certain point it legally changes its identity um it’s it’s almost like uh
back in the day when people would uh argue against I know this is going to sound like a complete tangent but hold
on with me here um when people would argue against like abortion they would say like it starts at the moment of
conception in other words before you even put your socks back on and [ _ ] spark up a cigarette there’s a third person in the room it’s like okay I don’t think that I don’t think that that’s how it works right but anyway so it’s funny because in in this instance legally there’s a certain point behind in the pl the tense behind me that the plants change their legal definition is isn’t that hilarious like I all of the sudden yeah they yeah it’s like it’s like you are a child and well it’s this is exactly the analogy you’re a child then you become a teenager and then you can drive and then from a teenager once you become an adult you can vote and then when you become an adult adult you can drink right like it’s basically that same metamorphosis but nothing has changed you’re still the same person right that plant becomes marijuana in a few weeks yeah and so the reason I even started with that example is because like I feel like maybe I misunderstood something you said earlier because thcv for example you’re right it’s mainly derived from hemp and in fact somebody just posted I was trying to find the post the other day if you see me looking over here I can’t find the post right now but I’ll find it here in a second somebody was posting they found thcv in an Illinois dispensary and they’re like what’s up with this and I’m pretty sure yeah it’s hemp derived because they’re allowed to sell hemp derived products in Illinois dispensaries so I guess my point is when you said that earlier I feel like it could have confused people I completely agree with what you what you were saying but you said uh thcv comes from hemp and people that grow marijuana can’t get that and it’s like but hold on a second it’s all cannabis so they probably could they just choose not to you know well so so yeah so there there’s an extraction process right when you extract from the plant you can extract canabo right however canabo are more Bountiful the only canabo that’s Bountiful in marijuana is THC Delta 9 THC this the the the the psychoactive component that gets you high right whereas in hemp it’s much well I shouldn’t say the only there are Trace Amounts in marijuana but to your point when that when that plant flips its identity from hemp to marijuana the canono profiles change and one becomes the den the dominant canid profile which is THC in milijana right whereas in hemp that canono profile of minor minor canono so that’s the CBG the CBD the Del you know the the the CBD uh CBN Delta 9 THC Delta H THC like they all live in that plant and then they just need to simply be extracted gotcha yeah um but yeah I just like to explain it that way because I feel like when you when you break it down like that then people that are arguing for or crackdowns on this it makes their case seem even more absurd you know yeah of course and it really does spite your face at that point yeah and it really does become a debate about as you were kind of alluding to earlier and we really got into it even though it seemed like we were like it’s like we were circling the drain on it and then finally I was like this is a debate about limited licenses isn’t it and I mean that’s really what it is because well I yeah because that’s exactly what it is yeah they said that to put a quote I don’t remember who exactly said it but it was basically a sentiment that if they were to just kind of allow anybody and everybody then it would damage their market share and market share is a key component of social Equity as they see it in other words limited licenses is the foundation of uh social Equity at least as we yeah we all know yeah but we all know limited licenses is never the foundation of anything Equitable because you’re you’re all the second you have a limited number of anything you’re disallowing and disassociating and disincluded people who have a right to the table right and so what what they’re really saying when they say limited license hinders our ability is the more licenses dilutes our ability it’s like you know here’s the analogy I I give if if you open a restaurant and you applied for a liquor license they give you one right if I open a restaurant across the street and appli for a lior license guess what they probably give me one right unless there was some exua circumstance that PR them to giving me one right you don’t get to decide if I get a liquor license and I don’t get to decide if you get a liquor license why should this be any different and can I can I continue your analogy like the point that I think we both agree on on this like if I did it let’s say you got the liquor license and I didn’t and I just started like serving up liquor and like you know and then uh somebody stops by and they’re like hey you don’t have a liquor license what the [ _ ] going on with this and I could probably receive a pretty hefty Citation for that but guess what it doesn’t
involve me going to jail and that’s why I was saying earlier uh the main enforcement mechanism it seems of this
limited license system is the continuation of the drug war so if so in
other words these people that are advocating for this system I don’t know if they realize it
but they are advocating for the continuation of the drug war because that is the mechanism in which we
enforce this system I I spoke to criminal defense attorneys that are renowned in criminal law and they’re
pretty known for representing people uh in Illinois and they continue to uh have
to defend individuals against uh cannabis related
crimes in fact we just had somebody on the chinois podcast it’s it’s their mom
because the kid is in jail for a cannabis related infraction he’s actually going to be one of the first
people to call me from prison uh if if everything works out he’s serving in Illinois for a cannabis
related infraction and and see Cole like that is like such an unfortunate thing around
the criminalization of this plan and and I there’s zero justification for that
like that’s not what I’m going to do here but I’m going to turn the the the the conversation back to access opportunity and the ability
for people to make money in the industry limited licenses precludes people of
color and people of underrepresented backgrounds to make money I guarantee you that person who was on the the other
side of that argument in the previous conversation if they didn’t have a limited Li if they didn’t have one of those licenses that’s not the tune
they’d be singing right so so they don’t want any more licenses they don’t want anyone else getting in the game because
they want to protect um this monopolistic approach to the industry
right where you know we saw how that happened right in 1980 Jimmy Carter
um uh killed regul regulations on home brewing people were able to start home
brewing right and at that time there’s only 96 breweries in the country now how
many breweries are there right that didn’t stop blood light and C light and Mill life from doing good it just it
just created space for the half acres of the world to pop up right and and so so
you know we need to be in we need to be in this mindset that you know a a limited license model is anti-
capitalistic and we’re if we want to live in a capitalistic society and we have to promote capitalism at all turns
not only when it benefits us yeah yeah well said and I mean I completely agree
with that like that’s why I love the case you’re trying to make and that’s what’s interesting about it because what
what lesea Ford’s proposal is and I don’t know if you’re familiar with it but it’s the idea okay good uh yeah for
folks that are listening um it’s the idea that you know you can we’re trying to make legislation where
uh there would be a 21 plus age requirement which most of these companies that I’m familiar with are
already enforcing they they ID check um labeling which again something
that you know at least PFT does oh sorry you can kind of see the labeling here on the side there’s a QR code um many other
companies that I’m aware of of do you know uh not only potency testing but uh
you know quality testing um but this would be legally required now and so um
in other words it’s kind of a you know an open license approach for hemp derived cannaboids and it seems like
that’s what they an issue with you know yeah for sure but what what it also does
is it also takes a page an an executable page out of some of the other
legislation we’ve seen in that the tax revenue associated with this goes to a fund to help fund upstart um businesses
for people of color ex felons to to participate in the industry so so there’s that right there’s obviously the
the the the part where we as operators we as as businesses pay our fair share
of of taxes on on Revenue right sales taxes and and that’s that again like
that’s table Stakes for me and Glenn in our business because we want to operate above board like our aspiration is to be
the Coca-Cola the blood light of the THC beverage space and in order to do that you got to do it in a in a in the in the
public eye and we’re okay with that yeah yeah uh I guess just uh one one
other thought with regard to um you know limited licenses I was going to play
this quote during the um interview himself the the interview itself but it
just didn’t we didn’t get the opportunity so this is just about a minute long clip and it’s actually from
one of the participants uh in the debate um he I was actually referencing him earlier uh
you know he’s a friend of mine ail uh like I say a corporate attorney um and he’s been on the podcast a few times now
this is what he had to say about the difference between limited licenses and open licenses are from a business and
consumer perspective from the consumer’s
perspective a limited license Market generally is not a good thing so I say so like for the consumer is like it’s
better to have tons of competition I think in general um although maybe there’s an argument for it still but you
know tons of competition or at least tons of licenses and then the best folks sort of like you know at the end of the
day you know they win other folks get shaken out um from a wealth building
perspective it’s better to have a limited license Market because then the license is intrinsically valuable whereas if it’s like anybody can get it
there’s no like intrinsic value to um the license no economic value no you trans economic
value to the license um but when there’s only like 10 or 20 you can ensure that at least whoever gets them can at least
make some money and there’s a certain amount of competitive Advantage you have where you know like where in the market where now you can only go to so many
places and so it’s not great for the consumer because then the prices are kind of high everything else but for the
business it’s like you know we can almost not go out of business because you can only go so many places so you got to come
here yeah I mean he he he nailed it like that’s exactly it right and
so this is the this is the tension right if you’re if you’re for
limited licenses you’re not for Equity you’re not you’re not for social Equity you just can’t be right and what these
people are afraid of is a free market the consumers get to decide to his point
consumer Choice decides the winners and losers right now now the medre license
Market you only have so many options right the only the only thing that
precludes you know full monopolistic behavior in a you know Sunnyside
dispensary versus a you know you know a Zen Leaf Dispensary is that they have
rules and regs written that written in that I think 20% of your inventory has to be from Brands other than
yours right right so what do they do all those msos Co-op each other’s brands they’re all in each other’s 20% right
that’s not that’s impacting consumer the consumer has a limited choice right these guys in these these Li these
people with these licenses they want limited choice because that means you got to buy from them if you want to buy it legally that’s yeah exactly that’s
that part of that quote that I think stands out to me is that it’s not so great for the consumer because the
prices are kind of high and everything else but for the business it’s like we can almost not go out of business because you can only go to so many
places that you have to come here right and the sad part about that is let’s just say I win a license and I get
to be a licensed product right so I get to build I get a license to build a
gummy brand right then even if I have a license to
build a gummy brand on my own I have to rely
on the the big guys to put me on their shelves and yeah let’s be honest here
there’s I don’t know I think I can I could tell you the exact number if you gave me a second um
but well give me a second because I’m going to tell you the exact number because I don’t want to I don’t want someone to call me out for misquoting
something here so but I have a yeah take your time there’s
approximately give or take now this is not approximately 7,000
dispensaries in the country today that’s 7,000 stores that you can potentially
sell your gummy in if you’re a license holder well guess what if I’m a license holder in Illinois that’s not 7,000 in
Illinois there’s a few hundred in Illinois right so my my pool of success
shrinks you know drastically the you know the smaller the marketplace gets
whereas in hemp we can sell PFF right now and over a million retailers in the country
right well so we yeah go ahead no you got it no I was just going to say so
again if we want to talk about building of wealth building of opportunity yeah creating access you
know you can you can start to see the math doesn’t work in this limited license capacity because you you you
there’s just a finite of distribution points there a finite number of places where where a a aspiring entrepreneur
can win right so uh to just to play Devil’s Advocate they and I know you’ve
kind of already addressed this a few different ways you just did it with that point but they they argue
that social Equity is market share that’s how they Define it and they
Define yeah so then I would ask ask them I would ask him to say okay of the 2% of
cannabis businesses owned by people of color how is that Equitable 133% of the
population is is is black brown or underrepresented 13% so if we want to
just do simple simple math wouldn’t social Equity wouldn’t equitable distribution in Industry be
13% 13% H if the population is 13% black
people of color African-American wouldn’t social equity in an industry
equate to 133% of the license holders 13% of the businesses being African-American
that would be Equity yeah I follow your logic but I think they what they’ll say and even the state of Illinois I could
pull up their Instagram right now they like to point when they like say something like 60% black ownership
something like that even though it’s a small number of licenses they like to be able to say Wella you know pretty sure
pretty sure Illinois opened up a $2.5 million investigation and losts it into social Equity disparities and issues
correct me if I’m wrong I think that I think that dropped sometime last year so I mean again like tomato tomato
60% is a great number but 60% of 10 is six people yeah well and I like to say
that like okay 60% but but how many of those
are open right now how are they doing right how many will ever open how many
will ever open and I just you know they talk people from Illinois talk [ _ ] about Oklahoma or Michigan and stuff and I was like say what you will but if you’re ready to go you can go online pay for a license and have it that night and and then do your local ordinance stuff and and open up shop Mich Michigan’s probably Michigan people would people would argue that Michigan’s probably the best operating state right now yeah you know and it’s funny because Illinois again people like even our governor point to States like that and say it’s a failure they say uh you they’ve issued so many licenses I can even play a quote I’m not saying I agree with this Todd I just I think it’s important to take on these points um he’s said like you know to people that have said I’ll try to find the clip right now but to people that have said uh We’ve issued we haven’t issued enough licenses and uh everything else he says we have issued the number of licenses that we we’ve had so that Equity can occur by limiting the number of licenses he says we’re ensuring that I’m just totally going off the top of my head right now because I can’t find the video um by ensuring the number of licenses here actually I found the video Let’s watch it and I want you to be a respond to this if you could please because this is what The Advocates say they’re parting his like basically his logic right so we’ve limited the number of lenses in part because we wanted to make sure that the social Equity licenses had a fair shot in the industry and they weren’t just edged out to the very end uh and by you know having too many dispensaries in the market so that people can’t make money uh entrepreneurs who open places like uh Ivy Hall so uh so I’m I’m you know in many ways I I think that the what you all uh view as a you know as a slow plotting process is also one that uh ends up with um you know the the right uh um regulation and the right laws in place and the industry growing at a pace that will allow social Equity to take place within the entire cannabis industry which is one of the purposes of it sorry it’s just funny to hear that what how do you respond to that I’ve got another clip where he says that shorter but uh well how do you respond to that you don’t have to you you don’t have to play it I can appreciate JB as a politician now yeah let’s let’s look at his donor his donor role see how many of the corporate guys are on the donor role right like I I can appreciate what he’s trying to say but the reality of it is is that when you when you have a licensed model and the cost to apply and the rigor to apply and the legal fees to apply are so cumbersome that it discourages and precludes people of applying there’s no way it’s Equitable May it500 to $1,000 a year a license like a liquor license you got to renew every so much time and you have to meet these criteria and stay in good standing to keep operating that way your your ability your business Acumen you can actually launch your business and see if you have the Acumen to succeed but right now there’s so few people who even get a can get a seat at the table can get a ticket into the movie you know it’s [ _ ] laughable Cole like like and like unfortunately you know and and this
is what bothers me is that they tell people especially
communities of color the [ _ ] they want to hear and I got news for you no political party has ever delivered on the promise that they made to the people of color not the Republicans and not the Dems and so I expect him and I I applaud him he’s got to say that but the reality of it is is like if we believe in in capitalism and we believe in free markets then make the market quote unquote free make the fees in the licensed process nominal right and then I have to continue to prove that I’m in good standing that I paid my taxes that I’m not laid on you know my insurance that you know I’m not being sued for sexual harassment all the other things that you need to do to be a good operator anyways but and then let me operate and build a business and let the market decide if they want to succeed like look you don’t say I mean you go down any Street in Chicago right now you go on Chicago Avenue Westbound you tell me how many taras you see between you know [ _ ] eastbank club and you
know California Avenue right you didn’t have an issue giving all them food
license being right so so it’s like it’s like when you say we want to keep limited license so everyone can be
successful that’s not true because you would you would say there’s only we’re only going to allow 50 taras in Chicago We’re 50 Italian restaurants in Chicago
because we want every Italian restaurant to be successful you don’t do that you’re doing it in this in this specific
industry because you’re trying to create space for the elite to carve out and own
the business and own the market yeah and that’s the that’s a brutal and honest truth yeah like so your restaurant
example earlier all everybody accepts that in the first five years 80% of
restaurants go out of business but nobody’s arguing for license limitations on
restaurants exactly exactly so yeah well well said um I you know I’m just going
to read this quote by him he it’s basically the same thing he says the reality is that by holding back we’ve left a portion of the market still
available for social Equity license holders so that when they enter the industry when they enter the industry
they enter it in a profitable way I’m proud of that it would be easy to just allow existing systems rooted in
Tradition to leave people out it would be just easy to do it the
oldfashioned way to come into existence as they always have it’s much much harder to build something that is making
a difference and pushing against the grains of the past but that’s what we’re doing here in Illinois and I’m proud of
it sorry I just you know I know I’ve been hit no I mean listen I can applaud
the political speech but again why can’t there be room for
hemp drive canabo and low potency THD deriv from him and dispensaries right
there’s a you can you can buy Bud Light yeah in a convenience store you can also
buy in a liquor store in some in some states in some places you can buy a bottle of Fireball in a convenience
store and also a liquor store right there’s a reason why you have higher
octane like in Texas a great example they have beer stores and they have liquor stores right beer stores you can get beer and wine liquor stores you can
only get liquor and wine why is that because they wanted the higher potency stuff in a different environment so the
easy model is still more one Minnesota zoing yeah 10 milligrams you know 5
milligrams per serving 10 milligrams in a container can be consumed anywhere where 21 and up you know ageg gating is
is being done right you want something more P than that you want a d have you on you know uh you know your 75 mil
drink go find that somewhere else go go to a dispensary that’s what they’re they’re good for but but there should
there’s no reason why the two can’t exist together and if you talk to hemp
folks hemp folks are the ones that say that it’s the marijuana guys who don’t
want the hemp folks to exist they want to be able to sell CBN in their gummies but they’re the only ones that
should be able to sell it right anyone who doesn’t see that is a problem is part of the problem yeah let let me ask
you this do you think that Illinois and just I’m wor because I’m worried that this is going to catch on you know like
this definition of e Equity do you think we just have Equity defined wrong because like I feel like equity in
Illinois is incompatible with equality which is what you’re looking for equal access I
mean you know access I mean you yeah I think I think so I know the difference
between equality and Equity but I think in this in this regard the two the two can be interchangeable right yeah I mean
equality is equal shot Equity is Equitable shot meaning if I’m standing if I’m six feet tall and you’re five
feet tall you get a 12 inch box to stand on so we’re Equitable height okay so so
I think those two things are interchangeable in this regard right like I I think they can be used um
they both can be used but again like when you create an
industry that is that you say we’re the most Equitable in the country and this that and the other but the barrier of
Entry Is So High by default people who should have a
ticket to the to the game are disqualified because they can’t afford the ticket so if we want to talk
about Equitable access and you know equity and access make the ticket a a price where you have to pay for it so
that you paid enough that you care right $1,000 for your license and it has to be renewed every year or whatever it is
make it so you care and you operate in a place of Good Will and good faith but
you know most people in this country can scrape together a thousand bucks you know borrow go sell some candy bar sell
some water you know get their friend to go in on it with them whatever it is like most people can come up with a thousand bucks and I’m using that
because it’s a round number that people can wrap their hat around that to me creates a platform for
True access and I’ll tell you the the the bill that that rep Ford and that
crew um put out is a great bill it’s a great bill for marijuana and it’s a
great bill for him I mean sure I I think in any good piece of legislation you know your party feels like you maybe
didn’t get everything you wanted or deserve right but you know you got a lot and if
the other party feels the same way then the chances are that that’s a good piece of legislation I think that everyone
I’ve talked to um that’s that’s looked at it and you know myself and Glenn included think it’s it’s it’s a a
definite uh step in in the absolute right direction and it puts Illinois on the map as the best state to be in I’ll
use it the Cannabis industry hemp and marijuana nice nice hell yeah and I
guess that’s this is a good note to maybe wrap up on um sure uh you made
this point maybe Glenn made it but I don’t know um K is active in um
Minnesota and they have ties to GTI then of course cookies is selling their have
you ever heard they’ve got the like big thca website now and they’re selling all their te yeah yeah yeah yeah and can I
brought K up on the last the last pot so yeah yeah so my thing is these operators
these big operators these really well-known operators for better for worse um see the value in this so it’s
interesting that in some cases you’d think You’ think it’s like they’re
probably going to try to argue for that control but I get sorry what just to try to throw it out there
like I I brought that up because I feel like it really lends a lot of credibility to your side again they see
like they see so I’ll give you an example I can I can speak directly to this so I know for
fact that cookies has a large hemp business they do and good for them I
love to hear it I love to see it again like I think burner is doing a really thing smart thing with that company and
they’re creating access they’re getting people of color excited about the industry and and and giving them ways to
get in love it right as it pertains to can really good product have some
friends over there they started in the licens
markets Clift started in hemp markets can is one of the top sellers in
Minnesota there is no license dispensaries open they’re selling a hemp Drive THC product in Minnesota they’re
competing one to one with us and so if and to your point they’re backed by GTI
GTI made a significant investment in them if hemp is so so uh dangerous like
a lot of these um corporate cannabis corporate marijuana proponents would say why are there own Brands and products
playing in the space yeah right if it’s not if there’s no value in it if it
doesn’t drive consumer value and the consumer’s value is derived from coming to a dispensary that’s completely out of
my traditional um pattern of life and it
you know is is very expensive and and inconvenient if if if if it’s that’s the only chain
of value then why are they selling can in liquor stores and grocery stores in convenience stores and restaurants and
bars in Minnesota right next to PFF the answer is that’s hypocrisy right that’s hypocrisy so when
you hear that when you hear of that level of hypocrisy you have to ask yourself why why would they do that well
they do it because or why are they doing what they’re doing right now well because they don’t want
competition that’s the reason why they want to do away with him they they’ve got licensed Market beverages operating
but they’re doing they’re doing way more volume in Minnesota than they’re doing anywhere else so again they wouldn’t willingly or
knowingly participate in an industry that’s not safe would they right right
yeah and that’s one of the the other most convincing points that that I wish I would have leaned into brought up uh
more of because I think one of the P people that were arguing that you know
dispensaries should be able to sell everything like the only thing that should be sold outside of uh
dispensaries I think they were saying is CBD everything else must be dispensary like you know and but he mentioned he
was a former rep of cookies I believe I remember incorrectly so I thought I would be interested to ask him and I’m
sure he’d be up to come back on the show what he thinks about cookies selling you know like I say several
intoxicating products and they’re going to Alabama Arkansas you know North
Carolina Oklahoma all these illegal States tell
tell Bud Light that they can only sell Bud Light in 7-Eleven see what I’m saying it’s like
you know in a conversation I was having with a legislator in Illinois he actually said it best and the words were
simple why would we let popey’s regulate Chick-fil-A
and when you think about it you wouldn’t you wouldn’t so why why why are we going to allow
dispensaries and the and the corporate cannabis food chain supply chain be the only places you can get the minor
cannaboids right well number one it’s it’s called a monopoly and AT&T and Southwestern Bell
got broken up over because it’s it’s it’s a practice
that tends to be and have ad adverse effects on customers consumers they don’t have choice right but here we are
having a conversation in an emerging industry which people of color are being left behind by the day and we’re arguing
if we should limit access and choice to me there’s no more
hypocritical position happening right now it it’s unbelievable and the fact
that you know people who claim to be you know for the people don’t see it that
way is wild to me it’s truly wild to me yeah yeah well said well um Todd I want
to just give you uh you know plenty of space anything that you’d like to close on anything that we didn’t maybe perhaps
mentioned that you you know thought you might want to mention on the air tonight I just appreciate you man like I think
you what you’re doing and you taking the risk with the cold memo and going out there and creating a space for real open
and honest frankly hard conversations to be had um Kudos you man like that’s that’s hard that’s thankless and I know
you probably eat your fair you know fair share of [ __ ] sandwiches because of it and so yeah you know I appreciate it I I
know you know Glenn appreciates it in the industry at large should appreciate it because again I’m happy to have my my
my position challenged um but I can tell you that I haven’t I haven’t seen one
person give me a real real um challenging position that makes me Double Take on
yeah well said dude well said I always like to say that you know I like to sit down with people that I disagree with
for example I had somebody on that believes that can cannabis shouldn’t be legal at all right they Lobby and I and
I say you know I like to sit down with people that I might disagree with because I am confident in what I believe
in and you know if you do happen to get me with something that makes me rethink my position I will be honest about it
you know yeah and and I’ll rethink it like I tell you right now Glenn and I have conversations all the time that I
have to rethink my position yeah so I’m I’m open I’m open to you know new lines
of thought and and you know new new ways of thinking and and bettering not only
this this industry but Society but I stand by It Like H yeah as someone who
started in that space and is now in the Hem space and growing a business and employing people I can tell you if I was
in that space I would have died on the vine Trine and I and I know me and Glenn know what we’re doing yeah imagine if
you didn’t know what you’re doing but you just had the dream and the hope and the aspiration to do this thing yeah so Todd thank you for find
someone who can change that mind thank you for the kind words I just wanted to say that and um you know got
man you know the space is always open for you I look forward to having you back on in the future and and I look
forward to what you what you all roll out um so yeah we’ll get you some PFF
plus samples here shortly sweet sweet cool well folks uh it’s pff.com
perfectly do what was the other one we’ll have it in the description but so you got you got pft.com drink pli onth
socials you got perfectly do.com and perfectly doed onth socials cool cool
folks check it out so it’s good stuff I’ve been drinking it this whole podcast thank you brother yep take care
everybody bye